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	<title>Comments on: Latter-day doubts?</title>
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	<description>the gay community&#039;s news source</description>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6714</link>
		<dc:creator>JD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 01:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You didn&#039;t finish the article, but still felt you could comment on it? Weird.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You didn&#8217;t finish the article, but still felt you could comment on it? Weird.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6443</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Like David (and I know him some) and Josh - I am a gay Saint as well, but who is at a different stage of life, more than twice David&#039;s age.  Is anyone else simply getting tired of all of this  - so much yelling across the bow?  I was LDS convert in my young adulthood, was once heterosexual (judging from my actions and the fact that I married a woman and gave it my best), now homosexual (judging from my actions, but please, that doesn&#039;t mean I&#039;m engaging in your worst nightmare!).  I don&#039;t expect straight men to really understand me - EVER.  Judging from the people I&#039;ve met and stopped to think about these last 10 years (after I stopped judging my attractions, and stopped performing according to The Script), I have found that many gay secular men just want the physical and the emotional; many gay LDS men want the physical, the emotional AND the spiritual - that which is almost impossible to explain or even share with the secular world (although I try here in NYC).
 
Why? Because we know that there is some really &quot;powerful stuff&quot; to be found in the connections that exist with the Holy Spirit present.  Whether by ourselves, or with a friend, or even with a boyfriend.  We try for a balancing act, always wondering if it has to be the one OR the other.  Can&#039;t we double helix the both? Can we stop shooting our lower chakras (body) in order to live in our upper chakras (spirit)? Can we be animal, human AND divine and stop freaking out that, in fact, we are all three?

I don&#039;t care about what members of a church think.  If their reaction is hostile, oftentimes, such hostility falls into three categories: 1) lack of exposure to gays/lesbians; 2) reliance on the Holy Bible and a literal understanding from 2000-3000 years ago for what is good and evil; 3) fear of one&#039;s own sexuality which is probably not 100% straight.  All three are certainly understandable.

For the gay Saint, the two biggest problems are: 1) Mormonism is not just your theology, it&#039;s also your identity - and so you have a WILD RIDE if you reject your church - because in a sense you are attacking your own ego identity - not a good thing!; 2) you&#039;re going to have to build your own construct regarding your core set of beliefs, something you did not have very much practice doing!  HARD WORK!

And so, how can we all proceed? Ty Mansfield was quoted this morning (10/26/10) in the Salt Lake Tribune (www.sltrib.com)  about a talk by a very high up LDS church leader Uchtdorf this past Sunday. He said that U&#039;s gentleness is a sign of where the LDS church membership is really heading - and that in the future there will be a &quot;radical&quot; change in how the membership views both the issue and those who have homosexual feelings. (although I would like to ask Mr Mansfield how radical a change the membership will take for those who choose to partake of homosexual acts).  I sense that there is already a generational shift in progress - 20somethings simply GET it far more than 50somethings (let alone 80somethings?). Perhaps that can be called the Will and Grace effect?

How can queer Saints proceed? Let us start sharing our own journeys through the American Gay life juxtaposed with Mormon religious life, and elaborate on if we are arriving at a new synthesis - usually done with old fashioned hard work, a boatload of tears, and an occasional epiphany.  Are we getting closer to arriving at a new way of living, a new understanding of the duality? Is there a new possibility to offer the next generation (and they ARE coming, statistically speaking) of gay Mormons who, with their disproportionate amount of giftedness as well as their huge desire to serve, might wish to figure this whole story out a lot faster?  

In the end, as we all move on in years, I&#039;m sure we would stand to enjoy the fruit of honest and first class relationships as a way of serving those whom we best understand.   I guess it could be called a mission for life.  But not in telling anyone what to do.  Rather in being there, close at hand, for the journey.  Getting a chance to fulfill (one) of the measures of our (unique) creation, which is to have extraordinary friendships.  Sharing joy.  Not a bad payout, even down here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like David (and I know him some) and Josh &#8211; I am a gay Saint as well, but who is at a different stage of life, more than twice David&#8217;s age.  Is anyone else simply getting tired of all of this  &#8211; so much yelling across the bow?  I was LDS convert in my young adulthood, was once heterosexual (judging from my actions and the fact that I married a woman and gave it my best), now homosexual (judging from my actions, but please, that doesn&#8217;t mean I&#8217;m engaging in your worst nightmare!).  I don&#8217;t expect straight men to really understand me &#8211; EVER.  Judging from the people I&#8217;ve met and stopped to think about these last 10 years (after I stopped judging my attractions, and stopped performing according to The Script), I have found that many gay secular men just want the physical and the emotional; many gay LDS men want the physical, the emotional AND the spiritual &#8211; that which is almost impossible to explain or even share with the secular world (although I try here in NYC).</p>
<p>Why? Because we know that there is some really &#8220;powerful stuff&#8221; to be found in the connections that exist with the Holy Spirit present.  Whether by ourselves, or with a friend, or even with a boyfriend.  We try for a balancing act, always wondering if it has to be the one OR the other.  Can&#8217;t we double helix the both? Can we stop shooting our lower chakras (body) in order to live in our upper chakras (spirit)? Can we be animal, human AND divine and stop freaking out that, in fact, we are all three?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t care about what members of a church think.  If their reaction is hostile, oftentimes, such hostility falls into three categories: 1) lack of exposure to gays/lesbians; 2) reliance on the Holy Bible and a literal understanding from 2000-3000 years ago for what is good and evil; 3) fear of one&#8217;s own sexuality which is probably not 100% straight.  All three are certainly understandable.</p>
<p>For the gay Saint, the two biggest problems are: 1) Mormonism is not just your theology, it&#8217;s also your identity &#8211; and so you have a WILD RIDE if you reject your church &#8211; because in a sense you are attacking your own ego identity &#8211; not a good thing!; 2) you&#8217;re going to have to build your own construct regarding your core set of beliefs, something you did not have very much practice doing!  HARD WORK!</p>
<p>And so, how can we all proceed? Ty Mansfield was quoted this morning (10/26/10) in the Salt Lake Tribune (www.sltrib.com)  about a talk by a very high up LDS church leader Uchtdorf this past Sunday. He said that U&#8217;s gentleness is a sign of where the LDS church membership is really heading &#8211; and that in the future there will be a &#8220;radical&#8221; change in how the membership views both the issue and those who have homosexual feelings. (although I would like to ask Mr Mansfield how radical a change the membership will take for those who choose to partake of homosexual acts).  I sense that there is already a generational shift in progress &#8211; 20somethings simply GET it far more than 50somethings (let alone 80somethings?). Perhaps that can be called the Will and Grace effect?</p>
<p>How can queer Saints proceed? Let us start sharing our own journeys through the American Gay life juxtaposed with Mormon religious life, and elaborate on if we are arriving at a new synthesis &#8211; usually done with old fashioned hard work, a boatload of tears, and an occasional epiphany.  Are we getting closer to arriving at a new way of living, a new understanding of the duality? Is there a new possibility to offer the next generation (and they ARE coming, statistically speaking) of gay Mormons who, with their disproportionate amount of giftedness as well as their huge desire to serve, might wish to figure this whole story out a lot faster?  </p>
<p>In the end, as we all move on in years, I&#8217;m sure we would stand to enjoy the fruit of honest and first class relationships as a way of serving those whom we best understand.   I guess it could be called a mission for life.  But not in telling anyone what to do.  Rather in being there, close at hand, for the journey.  Getting a chance to fulfill (one) of the measures of our (unique) creation, which is to have extraordinary friendships.  Sharing joy.  Not a bad payout, even down here.</p>
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		<title>By: sweetfunkystuff</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6156</link>
		<dc:creator>sweetfunkystuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 03:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really wish human beings would realize how free they could be if they simply rejected their antiquated, unproven, hocus-pocus beliefs about arbitrary, judgmental, and genocidal sky beings and thought for themselves.  We don&#039;t need organized religion (with all of its nonsensical teachings) in order to be moral beings.  We really don&#039;t.  Oh, and I agree with what Jerry said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really wish human beings would realize how free they could be if they simply rejected their antiquated, unproven, hocus-pocus beliefs about arbitrary, judgmental, and genocidal sky beings and thought for themselves.  We don&#8217;t need organized religion (with all of its nonsensical teachings) in order to be moral beings.  We really don&#8217;t.  Oh, and I agree with what Jerry said.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6149</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have you ever looked up the word cult? If you have you&#039;ll see that pretty much all religions will fall into that category!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever looked up the word cult? If you have you&#8217;ll see that pretty much all religions will fall into that category!</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6146</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not possible for me to determine which church, Mormon, Roman Catholic, or Southern Baptist comes closest to being the American Taliban, they are all running close races for who&#039;s going to be Bigot-in Chief of this nation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not possible for me to determine which church, Mormon, Roman Catholic, or Southern Baptist comes closest to being the American Taliban, they are all running close races for who&#8217;s going to be Bigot-in Chief of this nation.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6106</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And Jesus was the Son of God who stated to a woman&#039;s face that she was like unto a dog who was not fit to sit at the same table with the master. She beautifully didn&#039;t get offended and offered to have some crumbs on the floor. (in a metaphorical sense)

So accusing Paul or someone else of using language that is politically incorrect (women, slaves, etc) is nice if you want to dismiss the actions of an individual as being out of line with Christ, but perhaps you can explain why Christ would turn a woman away merely because of the way she was born? And then turn around and accept her because of how she dealt with how she was born? Interesting in that it seems to imply it&#039;s what we do, not how we are born that matters!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Jesus was the Son of God who stated to a woman&#8217;s face that she was like unto a dog who was not fit to sit at the same table with the master. She beautifully didn&#8217;t get offended and offered to have some crumbs on the floor. (in a metaphorical sense)</p>
<p>So accusing Paul or someone else of using language that is politically incorrect (women, slaves, etc) is nice if you want to dismiss the actions of an individual as being out of line with Christ, but perhaps you can explain why Christ would turn a woman away merely because of the way she was born? And then turn around and accept her because of how she dealt with how she was born? Interesting in that it seems to imply it&#8217;s what we do, not how we are born that matters!</p>
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		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6103</link>
		<dc:creator>Latter-day Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is just a scream, Jenny. Seriously, so funny!

But... wait... you aren&#039;t actually serious, are you? I mean, surely you can&#039;t be making such an asinine comparison in earnest. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;The LDS church isn’t “hostile” to homosexuals any more than it is to those who smoke or drink.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, yeah, which is why the LDS Church has lobbied to prevent smokers and/or alcoholics from marrying -- no? Well, at least they&#039;ve told their members to sink millions of dollars in campaigns to make alcohol and tobacco unconstitutional -- not that either?

Well, it would seem that rational thought isn&#039;t &quot;in line with God’s plan&quot; either, because your mind is still miraculously unmarred by interacting with those gripped in the plague they call &quot;logic.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;I stopped reading after the line “a religion known for its hostility to homosexuality” in the 6th paragraph.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ah. Yes. That explains it.

A mind so pristine, so free from the wear-and-tear of cognition, can only be maintained by the devotional practice of putting your fingers in your ears and saying &quot;La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la!&quot; whenever its virgin purity is threatened by the terrible specter of THOUGHT.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is just a scream, Jenny. Seriously, so funny!</p>
<p>But&#8230; wait&#8230; you aren&#8217;t actually serious, are you? I mean, surely you can&#8217;t be making such an asinine comparison in earnest. </p>
<blockquote><p>The LDS church isn’t “hostile” to homosexuals any more than it is to those who smoke or drink.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, yeah, which is why the LDS Church has lobbied to prevent smokers and/or alcoholics from marrying &#8212; no? Well, at least they&#8217;ve told their members to sink millions of dollars in campaigns to make alcohol and tobacco unconstitutional &#8212; not that either?</p>
<p>Well, it would seem that rational thought isn&#8217;t &#8220;in line with God’s plan&#8221; either, because your mind is still miraculously unmarred by interacting with those gripped in the plague they call &#8220;logic.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>I stopped reading after the line “a religion known for its hostility to homosexuality” in the 6th paragraph.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah. Yes. That explains it.</p>
<p>A mind so pristine, so free from the wear-and-tear of cognition, can only be maintained by the devotional practice of putting your fingers in your ears and saying &#8220;La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la!&#8221; whenever its virgin purity is threatened by the terrible specter of THOUGHT.</p>
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		<title>By: One in Six Billion</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-6048</link>
		<dc:creator>One in Six Billion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-6048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That Oakland meeting got the church a lot of spin, but it was a one hour meeting where a minor leader heard 13 people--not too in depth there--do the math. Then he got teary. Wow, Big Breakthrough! A Mormon leader had feelings!!! 

The rest of us should reject this as anything significant. Mormons are the ultimate fingers in the ears &#039;nah nah nah nah nah can&#039;t hear you&quot; people, see Jenny above. Their beliefs completely blinder them from compassionate understanding of others, as they are too self absorbed in their own quirky beliefs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Oakland meeting got the church a lot of spin, but it was a one hour meeting where a minor leader heard 13 people&#8211;not too in depth there&#8211;do the math. Then he got teary. Wow, Big Breakthrough! A Mormon leader had feelings!!! </p>
<p>The rest of us should reject this as anything significant. Mormons are the ultimate fingers in the ears &#8216;nah nah nah nah nah can&#8217;t hear you&#8221; people, see Jenny above. Their beliefs completely blinder them from compassionate understanding of others, as they are too self absorbed in their own quirky beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-5983</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-5983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree on so many levels with what you say. I find that so few gay people who used to be Mormon are like me in the &quot;I used to be and now I&#039;m not because we have different views on certain lifestyles. I&#039;ll do my thing, they do theirs and that&#039;s that.&quot; They seem to fall into the &quot;fence riders&quot; like the author of this article, or they are the &quot;anti-Mormon&quot; deploring everything about the religion and how much it ruined their life yada yada. The resulting counterculture of misinformation is alarming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree on so many levels with what you say. I find that so few gay people who used to be Mormon are like me in the &#8220;I used to be and now I&#8217;m not because we have different views on certain lifestyles. I&#8217;ll do my thing, they do theirs and that&#8217;s that.&#8221; They seem to fall into the &#8220;fence riders&#8221; like the author of this article, or they are the &#8220;anti-Mormon&#8221; deploring everything about the religion and how much it ruined their life yada yada. The resulting counterculture of misinformation is alarming.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/10/14/latter-day-doubts/#comment-5981</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.washingtonblade.com/?p=13649#comment-5981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I stopped reading after the line &quot;a religion known for its hostility to homosexuality&quot; in the 6th paragraph. That line signals an obvious bias against the LDS church and poor journalism. The LDS church isn&#039;t &quot;hostile&quot; to homosexuals any more than it is to those who smoke or drink. You can, and should, still love someone as a child of God and respect them as a person, even if you don&#039;t agree with their actions or feel that their choices are in line with God&#039;s plan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stopped reading after the line &#8220;a religion known for its hostility to homosexuality&#8221; in the 6th paragraph. That line signals an obvious bias against the LDS church and poor journalism. The LDS church isn&#8217;t &#8220;hostile&#8221; to homosexuals any more than it is to those who smoke or drink. You can, and should, still love someone as a child of God and respect them as a person, even if you don&#8217;t agree with their actions or feel that their choices are in line with God&#8217;s plan.</p>
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