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Former Madonna dancer Slam recalls ‘Blond Ambition Tour,’ ‘Truth or Dare’

Salim Gauwloos revisits landmark film on its 25th anniversary

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Salim Gauwloos, gay news, Washington Blade

Salim Gauwloos today at work teaching dance in New York. (Photo courtesy Gauwloos)

ā€œTruth or Dare”

Monday, Sept. 12

 

9 p.m.

 

AFI Silver

 

$13

 

8633 Colesville Rd.

 

Silver Spring, Md.

 

afi.com/silver

 

ā€œMadonna: Truth or Dare,ā€ the landmark 1991 documentary (aka ā€œIn Bed With Madonnaā€) is widely remembered not only as an eye-popping memento of the singerā€™s legendary ā€œBlond Ambition Tour,ā€ but also as a gay cultural touchstone.

In some ways, itā€™s the gay equivalent of classic rockumentaries like ā€œGimme Shelterā€ or ā€œThe Last Waltzā€ but itā€™s more than that, too. Not only because it captures Our Lady at the peak of the zeitgeist, but also because its depiction of Madonnaā€™s back-up dancers (of the seven, only Oliver Crumes was straight) being so matter-of-factly out that it felt almost otherworldly to the gay boys who lapped it up in Peoria and everywhere else.

In honor of its anniversary ā€” it screens twice in the coming days at the AFI Silver ā€” we caught up with Salim ā€œSlamā€ Gauwloos, one of the ā€œBlond Ambitionā€ dancers whose onscreen kiss with the late Gabriel Trupin is one of the filmā€™s most memorable moments. His comments have been slightly edited for length.

Salim Gauwloos, gay news, Washington Blade

Madonna’s ‘Blond Ambition Tour’ dancers, made famous in the film ‘Truth or Dare,’ reunited for ‘Strike a Pose.’ Clockwise from left are Luis Camacho, Oliver Crumes, Carlton Wilborn, Kevin Stea, Jose Gutierez and Salim Gauwloos. (Photo by Robin De Puy)

WASHINGTON BLADE: Before we get to ā€œTruth or Dare,ā€ tell us a little about ā€œStrike a Pose,ā€ the reunion documentary youā€™re in with the other ā€œBlond Ambition Tourā€ dancers. When will we get to see it in Washington?

GAUWLOOS: Itā€™s a great movie, youā€™ll enjoy it. Theyā€™re working on a U.S. theatrical release early next year. Before everybody downloads it. Youā€™ll see it soon. Itā€™s a beautiful movie. They did a great job.

BLADE: But it has already been on the festival circuit, right?

GAUWLOOS: Yes. We mostly go out in twos, only in Berlin and Amsterdam they flew everybody over, but mostly just two of us to wherever. I went to Colombia, to Tel Aviv. It takes a lot of time always, but itā€™s fun. Almost like being on tour again.

BLADE: How did they pitch you on ā€œStrike a Poseā€?

GAUWLOOS: They approached me in 2013. I was doing a job, this big dance festival in Vienna and they contacted me. I said, ā€œOK, Iā€™ll meet with Reijer Zwaan,ā€ one of the directors. He came to meet me in Vienna and we must have talked for about eight hours. It just felt right, I donā€™t know. I think the directors, Ester Gould and Reijer Zwaan, these directors from Holland, theyā€™re amazing storytellers. I did kind of think, ā€œDo I really want to throw myself out there again to be judged really in some kind of way, I want to be careful about that,ā€ but I had a really good feeling about it.

BLADE: Did you talk to the other dancers before agreeing to it?

GAUWLOOS: No. I think the last one to jump on board was Jose (Gutierez). I felt it really should be all the dancers. Of course Gabriel (Trupin), he passed away a long time ago, but his mother represents him in the movie and thatā€™s really beautiful. It wouldnā€™t have been the same without all the dancers so in the end, we all agreed and started shooting in 2014.

BLADE: Had you seen the other five any since the ā€œTruth or Dareā€ premiere or kept in touch with them at all?

GAUWLOOS: No. For example, Carlton (Wilborn), Oliver (Crumes) and Kevin (Stea), I hadnā€™t seen for probably close to 25 years. Maybe 24 years. And Luis (Camacho) Iā€™d seen a little bit here and there but that was probably like 12 years. Jose (Gutierez) and I both live in New York so I saw him a little bit here and there but with most of them, Iā€™d had literally no contact at all. It was so amazing to see them all again after 25 years.

BLADE: What was different about this project?

GAUWLOOS: Weā€™ve been approached so many times but in the end, itā€™s just mostly about Madonna but these guys really wanted to know what happened with us during the tour and what was happening with us right now, 25 years later, what we were up to, so that was really nice.

BLADE: You said recently that Reijer Zwaan was almost like your psychiatrist. How so?

GAUWLOOS: You probably know I was diagnosed in 1987 as being HIV-positive and I wanted to be out with that for a long time. It just felt silly to not be. So then along came Reijer and we talked for eight hours and it just all came out you know, crying and it was really the first time I sat with somebody I didnā€™t really know and told them, ā€œYes, Iā€™ve been HIV for 29 years,ā€ 27 at the time. I was like, ā€œOh my God, I feel like Iā€™ve just been to a psychiatrist.ā€ Iā€™ve never been to a real one. Maybe I should (laughs).

BLADE: Madonna made a surprise appearance at a ā€œTruth or Dareā€ anniversary screening a couple weeks ago in New York. What did it feel like when she walked in the room unannounced?

GAUWLOOS: It was surreal. We were just sitting there and weā€™re thinking, ā€œOK, why isnā€™t the movie playing?ā€ and boom, she walks in. It was like the whole room just gasped for air. You couldnā€™t believe it was real. She just sat down, watched the movie and left. But it was amazing.

BLADE: Had you seen her at all in the last 25 years?

GAUWLOOS: I hadnā€™t seen her in a long, long, long time. People on social media were like, ā€œOh my God, did she talk to you guys?ā€ but we were in the front row and she was more in the back. Jose and I should have gone up to her but it wasnā€™t really the right moment. When she walked in it was just like, ā€œWhoah, Iā€™ve never felt that kind of energy in one room.ā€ It was interesting watching the movie with her. Itā€™s a good film. Very funny.

BLADE: How does it strike you seeing it now?

GAUWLOOS: I watched it a few years ago before we did ā€œStrike a Pose.ā€ When I see it Iā€™m like, ā€œOh my God, my hair.ā€ Me and my hair, itā€™s the only thing I can look at. I canā€™t stop flipping it, you know. Itā€™s like I was so busy with my hair always. Iā€™m just happy to have been part of such a big, iconic moment. If you look at the concert footage, it doesnā€™t look dated. The whole thing is just amazing. The least annoying thing for me is the kiss, the most important gay kiss in history. That I donā€™t have a problem watching but some of it Iā€™m like, ā€œOh my God, no I did not just say that.ā€ Itā€™s like going back in time. It was a good experience.

BLADE: Wasnā€™t your hair sort of annoying at that length always falling in your face?

GAUWLOOS: Well when you dance, your hair flies around so it has more of an effect. I liked having longer hair and swinging it around.

BLADE: Speaking of hair, why did Madonna change her hair halfway through the tour? That ponytail look was so iconic for her but then she did the curls, which became kind of a trademark look too. It feels odd to me watching ā€œTruth or Dareā€ because sheā€™s always backstage and itā€™s supposed to make you feel like sheā€™s walking out into the concert footage but it doesnā€™t match because she has the different hair.

GAUWLOOS: It was just like one day she had the ponytail and then she just went to the Shirley Temple curls. I donā€™t think there was any specific reason for it. With the ponytail sometimes it would fly around in your face so I think the curls were easier. Personally I liked the curls more.

BLADE: Iā€™m sure you got wacked in the face with that ponytail a few times.

GAUWLOOS: Yeah and as a girl dancing with a ponytail, itā€™s like a delayed slap and it must have been difficult for her too.

BLADE: But it wasnā€™t that her hair was falling out from too much bleaching or pulling up or anything?

GAUWLOOS: No. She had strong hair.

BLADE: Do you feel sheā€™s a bit aloof with you guys or do you think thatā€™s just the way any major star would pretty much be?

GAUWLOOS: I donā€™t know. After 25 years, you know, itā€™s a long time. People go on with their life and deal with things in different ways. I mean I just knew sitting there she wasnā€™t going to run up to us and be like, ā€œOh my God,ā€ you know? I knew that was not going to happen. Itā€™s not really in her character to be like that. But who am I to judge? You know how you donā€™t see other people for many years and people react all different ways, so I donā€™t really judge that.

BLADE: Is it true (ā€œTruth or Dareā€ director) Alek Keshishian said all the hundreds of hours of outtakes got accidentally deleted?

GAUWLOOS: Not deleted, but nobody knows where it is.

BLADE: I thought it was lame when the Blu-ray release came out a few years ago they didnā€™t put like 20 minutes or a half-hour of outtakes on it as bonus material. That would have been fun to see.

GAUWLOOS: Supposedly all these people claim not to know where it is. Itā€™s lost.

BLADE: Iā€™m sure it will surface maybe for the 50th anniversary or something.

GAUWLOOS: I know, right? Of course it will. It always does.

BLADE: Was there any dance move or routine that was especially tricky to learn for the tour?

GAUWLOOS: Well I had to learn to vogue, but it wasnā€™t particularly difficult. The only people who knew what that even was before were Luis, Jose and Madonna, who hired them. Being a classically trained dancer, it wasnā€™t really a challenge but it was one thing I had to learn. I think it came pretty naturally for everybody. The rest was just hard work. A lot of rehearsals. Thatā€™s how we got a really tight show together like that.

BLADE: Is it true you did like two weeks of twice-a-day run throughs before it premiered?

GAUWLOOS: Oh definitely. We were in the studio like 10-12 hours then at the end there were tech rehearsals at night too. It was a crazy, crazy schedule but you know, we were so young, talented and hungry so we didnā€™t care. We were all in it 100 percent.

BLADE: By the end, were you drenched in sweat and exhausted or were you in such great shape that you werenā€™t?

GAUWLOOS: People always think the numbers I was featured in like ā€œExpress Yourselfā€ or the Dick Tracy part would be the most exhausting but those were the ones you could enjoy more. The most exhausting number to do was ā€œLike a Prayerā€ because we had this whole big number while sheā€™s changing for the next number. That you were like, ā€œOK, now I canā€™t breathe.ā€ (laughs)

BLADE: Do you have any mementos from the tour? Any costumes or anything?

GAUWLOOS: I did but I lost all of them, just having moved so many times. When we started shooting ā€œStrike a Pose,ā€ they were like, ā€œShow us some picturesā€ and I was like, ā€œI donā€™t have anything.ā€ Itā€™s kind of sad. Only in my head.

BLADE: So you donā€™t have the rosary Madonna gave you?

GAUWLOOS: No, I definitely donā€™t have it. I should just buy one and say itā€™s the one she gave me. (laughs)

BLADE: Some of the choreography was so gay but you were kind of the straight hunk too in some passages. Did that strike you as ironic?

GAUWLOOS: No, itā€™s like being an actor. Some passages I was acting as a straight dance partner for Madonna so I was acting straight. Not every dancer could do it. But it mostly came natural and from just doing it over and over.

BLADE: Did you bulk up for the tour or were you always kind of built like that?

GAUWLOOS: Starting out in Antwerp, Belgium as a dancer I was really skinny. Then I came to America, I got a little bit bigger. For the tour we were supposed to go to the gym but of course we never went. It was just the cruel rehearsal schedule that kind of got everybody in shape. Itā€™s like 10 hours of dancing, how can you not be in shape from that? Thatā€™s how I got bigger and more muscular. I definitely didnā€™t look like that when we started, definitely not.

BLADE: Did you see ā€œIā€™m Going to Tell You a Secret,ā€ the ā€œTruth or Dareā€ sequel?

GAUWLOOS: I saw a little part of it, not the whole thing. I heard the dancers did not get as much of a part. No kissing, in other words. Not X-rated. (laughs)

BLADE: Did you grow up Catholic?

GAUWLOOS: No, not really. My mom would say she was Catholic but we never went to church. It was just kind of like, ā€œWell, we walk by the church.ā€ But definitely not. My father was Muslim. Iā€™m half Moroccan. He was from Morocco but he passed away and was only in my life a couple years and then he disappeared. Iā€™m a little bit of everything but I donā€™t go to church or practice.

BLADE: So did all the religious imagery in the show resonate with you at all?

GAUWLOOS: No, it was more of a theatrical thing for me with the crosses and the lights. I never felt like, ā€œOh my God, this is sacrilegiousā€ or anything. I just saw it as a show. I was probably the least knowledgeable about how controversial and taboo it was for the time.

BLADE: The ā€œVogueā€ VMA performance with the Marie Antoinette costumes, was that after the tour?

GAUWLOOS: Yes. That was nice because we were all sad when the tour ended but we knew weā€™d be going back in a few weeks to do that and weā€™d get to see each other and dance together again. We worked like a week and a half or two weeks getting ready for that just with the costumes and the girls had the fans and everything and just to make sure it was really tight. I think it was like a month or two months after the tour finished.

BLADE: Carlton was on ā€œThe Girlie Show,ā€ Madonnaā€™s next tour. What were you doing by ā€™93 and was there any discussion or possibility of any of the rest of you touring with Madonna again?

GAUWLOOS: No. The ride was over after everything was done with Madonna and I realized I had my own reality to deal with being HIV. I was just going through life really. I really partied so I didnā€™t have to deal with being HIV and it was like a really dark period for me for like six-seven years.

BLADE: How did you get through it?

GAUWLOOS: When I really got my shit together was in 2000. I met my husband and fell in love, that was it. That changed my whole life around. But before that, Iā€™d been diagnosed in 1987 and then I ended up in the hospital in 1997 with a really bad pneumonia. I didnā€™t do any treatment for 10 years, I just couldnā€™t deal with it. So I ended up in the hospital and that was really a reality check and a wakeup call. I donā€™t know, this is awfully personal, but I also had some issues with my working papers too. I was HIV-positive so I didnā€™t want to go to the hospital and get deported. Thatā€™s one of the reasons I never went. Thatā€™s also why coming out with my story, Iā€™m sure there are a lot of people in my situation. Theyā€™re HIV and illegal aliens and afraid to get help. I ended up in the hospital almost dead before I realized there are so many organizations out there that can help you get free medication and they donā€™t deport you and all that stuff.

BLADE: Tell me about your husband.

GAUWLOOS: He got my heart, you know? His name is Facundo Gabba. Heā€™s from Argentina. He just came into my life and blew me away. When I was diagnosed it was still the ā€˜80s and people were dropping like flies. You canā€™t imagine what it was like to have some guy come in and telling you this with your mother sitting there. They said, ā€œYou have the HIV virus and youā€™ve probably got about five years.ā€ So the first thing was like, ā€œOh my God, Iā€™m 18, what did I do wrong?ā€ It was a really dark, dark, dark thing. Thank God the whole Madonna experience happened because I needed something to hold onto. ā€¦ You think, ā€œWhoā€™s going to love me?,ā€ but you can be HIV and find love. That was the biggest thing for me to learn.

BLADE: What do you do now?

GAUWLOOS: I teach at Broadway Dance Center, a very nice school here in New York City, on a regular basis. I also do fashion shoots. When they approached me for ā€œStrike a Poseā€ in 2013, I had just finished working on Longchamp. I did that for two seasons so mostly teaching but also doing a lot of fashion productions.

BLADE: Did you go to Gabrielā€™s funeral?

GAUWLOOS: No. I didnā€™t know right away that heā€™d died. But since ā€œStrike a Pose,ā€ Iā€™ve been in contact with his mother, Sue, who is really nice. Itā€™s almost like being in touch with Gabriel. Sheā€™s such a sweet woman. We talk and itā€™s been a great experience going to her house in San Francisco. I get to find out more about Gabriel. Itā€™s really beautiful.

BLADE: Have you followed Madonnaā€™s career? Did you ever go see her other tours?

GAUWLOOS: I never went to her shows, but Iā€™d watch her on YouTube here and there if she had new stuff. I liked ā€œThe Girlie Showā€ and I thought ā€œThe Confessions Tourā€ where she came out of the disco ball and had all the Steven Klein stuff with the horses and everything was beautiful.

BLADE: You have to get tired of being asked about Madonna, no?

GAUWLOOS: Yeah, it gets a little tiring here and there but at the same time, itā€™s OK. Especially with this new movie, they do ask Madonna questions but there are also questions related to us, so itā€™s really nice. Iā€™m happy it happened. Especially now, weā€™re all in the spotlight again so itā€™s OK. Iā€™ll take that with it. I donā€™t mind.

BLADE: You said once you were also really into Janet Jackson back in the early ā€˜90s too, right?

GAUWLOOS: I was really into Janet Jackson and also Paula Abdul a lot, too. I know a lot of people didnā€™t really like Paula Abdul, but I liked her because here was another singer giving a lot of dancers work and it was real dance. You had to be a real dancer. So I think thatā€™s where that comes from. Did I like their music more than Madonnaā€™s? No, I donā€™t think so, but I liked the whole moving thing, the whole ā€œRhythm Nationā€ thing, I was into that too.

BLADE: One thing that came up when Oliver, Kevin and Gabriel sued Madonna over ā€œTruth or Dareā€ was a claim that they didnā€™t know it was going to be made into this big thing and so on. But you guys saw Alek and his team around constantly. Wasnā€™t that claim somewhat naive?

GAUWLOOS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I donā€™t know what all they sued for. They all sued for different things. What wasnā€™t clear was that we were not going to make any money from ā€œTruth or Dareā€ and we didnā€™t. At the end of the day, thatā€™s what it came down to. To this day, weā€™ve never made a penny from ā€œTruth or Dare.ā€ Iā€™m not saying that to be shady or mean, itā€™s just a fact. Did I sue? No, no. If itā€™s that important to somebody, I donā€™t know. Iā€™m just not a suing person I think, especially for something like that.

BLADE: Did they ask you if you wanted to be part of it?

GAUWLOOS: No, no, no. That last time I saw them was in L.A. I saw them on some talk shows talking about the lawsuit but we all knew they were taping. I just think we didnā€™t know we werenā€™t going to make any money, which would have been nice. A lot of us could have used the money.

BLADE: Niki (Haris) and Donna (DeLory) toured with Madonna a lot in subsequent years but with a few exceptions, she mostly gets all new dancers for each tour. Why do you think that is?

GAUWLOOS: Probably just so she always had a new look, a fresh look, you know? I think with backup singers, Niki and Donna were the perfect backup singers for Madonna. They could move, they could sing, they looked nice, they had all the qualities. Itā€™s probably a lot harder to find all that, so they were like a perfect match. With the dancers, I just think itā€™s her thing. Aside from Carlton and maybe a few others, itā€™s just like her schtick to hire new dancers each tour.

BLADE: Have you ever met any of her other dancers? Any of them ever come up and say hi?

GAUWLOOS: No. I wonā€™t speak to dancers of other tours. No, Iā€™m joking. (laughs)

BLADE: Aside from your work with Madonna, what are you most proud of?

GAUWLOOS: Ugh, thatā€™s a tough question. I donā€™t know. I think the most proud thing would be being a dancer and still to this day, always having a voice and not really changing my belief system of dancing and everything. As an artist, Iā€™ve always believed in myself. I may ask other people for advice, but at the end of the day, Iā€™ve always listened to myself first.

Salim Gauwloos, right, with Madonna on the Blond Ambition Tour. (Screen capture via YouTube)

Salim Gauwloos, right, with Madonna on the Blond Ambition Tour. (Screen capture via YouTube)

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Rehoboth authorā€™s new book tackles love, loss, and the allure of P-town

Will Freshwaterā€™s series concludes with ā€˜The Dark Horseā€™

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Author Will Freshwaterā€™s new book ā€˜The Dark Horseā€™ is out now.

For those of us who have experienced the allure of Provincetown, thereā€™s no mystery about why author Will Freshwater set his series of three books there. 

Itā€™s not just about the scenic, remote location, or the many fine restaurants and spirited bars and nightclubs and theme weekends. Not just the picturesque harbor and its famed magical light. Itā€™s about a shared sense of community unique among LGBTQ destinations.

Freshwater, whose latest book ā€œThe Dark Horseā€ is out now, lives in Rehoboth Beach, Del., with his husband Stephen Cremen. And although Rehoboth became home after Freshwater retired from a career as a corporate attorney at Verizon in 2021, P-town always beckons. He first visited during the height of the AIDS crisis.

ā€œI donā€™t think weā€™ll ever experience anything like that again,ā€ he said. ā€œThe community welcomed anyone who showed up on the ferry looking for love and support; it was a transformative experience.ā€

Freshwaterā€™s parents worried that heā€™d never find a ā€œnormal,ā€ happy life as a gay man, but P-town put those fears to rest.

ā€œI saw people who were plenty happy and living lives that were what they wanted to be,ā€ he recalls. ā€œI had never been able to hold my boyfriendā€™s hand and walk down the street; young people canā€™t conceptualize that. It felt like home for me ā€¦ it felt welcoming, a warm place where I could be myself.ā€ 

So, naturally, the protagonist in his series of books, John Wells, travels to P-town from D.C. to find himself. 

The first book in the Provincetown series, ā€œFavorite Son,ā€ is a familiar read to any gay man of a certain age who worked on the Hill in the 1990s ā€” the sting of the closet, the need to be the best at work, and the chance meetings of romantic partners while riding the Metro. The story of John Wells, a senior Hill staffer, takes a turn after tragedy sends him reeling to P-town to heal. 

The second book in the series, a prequel titled ā€œThe Light Reflected,ā€ takes readers back in time when the main characters ā€” all gay men ā€” are in their 20s. Freshwater says it wasnā€™t a conscious decision to write a prequel, but that it evolved out of wanting to show younger readers what life was like for gays at that time.

ā€œWe did stupid stuff and made stupid mistakes and ran away,ā€ he said. ā€œAs a reader I often want to know what made a character a certain way. I was aware of my audience and in my generation I had the older mentors that shared our history and they died; I wanted readers to see what itā€™s like for these characters to be in their 20s not just their 30s. I wanted to give that perspective to younger readers because I donā€™t know how theyā€™re going to experience that if not through books.ā€ 

The new book, ā€œThe Dark Horse,ā€ finds the characters Danny and Peter/John in domestic life in Boston where Danny runs the family business. Everyone is feeling restless and a bit miserable. 

ā€œItā€™s about what happens after the fairy tale,ā€ Freshwater said. 

The book also confronts the issue of unresolved feelings for past boyfriends, which takes the characters back to Provincetown. Thereā€™s a shocking plot twist at the end of the second book, an unexpected ending for the romance genre, that is resolved to satisfaction in the final book. 

ā€œYou wonā€™t know until the final four pages of the book how it resolves,ā€ he notes.

This is the shortest book in the series and Freshwater says it took just 11 months to complete, compared to six years for the first book and eight years for the second book.

ā€œThereā€™s a great sense of closure and I can always visit these characters but Iā€™m excited to move on and do new things.ā€ 

Indeed, Freshwater is working on several new projects, including a book set in Rehoboth that heā€™s co-writing with a friend, the gay romance author B.J. Irons. Freshwater is writing one character, a Rehoboth local who manages an inn on Baltimore Avenue and wants to ā€œbreak out of his shell.ā€ Irons is writing the other main character, a developer from Los Angeles who moves to Rehoboth to open a large resort across the street from the inn. The book explores their friendship and business rivalry. 

Rehoboth became home for Freshwater and Cremen thanks largely to the pandemic.

ā€œIā€™d been coming here since age 3 because it was the closest beach to Pittsburgh,ā€ he said. ā€œWhen I was in law school I got introduced to a guy who had a house on the beach between Rehoboth and Dewey so I used to come down a lot in the mid-1990s and became hooked.ā€ 

The couple bought a house in Rehoboth in 2018 and split their time between there and a home in New Jersey. 

ā€œWhen the pandemic started, we went to Rehoboth for two weeks thinking it would all blow over quickly and then never went back.ā€

 The couple began questioning their stressful lifestyle of maintaining two homes and corporate jobs. So they sold the New Jersey house and moved full time to Rehoboth in 2021. 

In addition to the new book, Freshwater is writing a childrenā€™s book using the classic ā€œVelvet Rageā€ as inspiration. It features a puppy with a pink spot on his cheek while all the others in the litter have a black spot. The dog wears a mask to conceal his difference, but when it comes out everyone accepts him.

ā€œIt thematically speaks to not hiding who you are,ā€ he said.

Freshwater offers sound advice to aspiring writers struggling to find their voice and overcome writerā€™s block.

ā€œIt always starts with an idea or character or theme and then you develop a broad outline and then work your butt off,ā€ he said. ā€œDecide when youā€™re going to write and make a commitment that youā€™re going to do it, like an athlete who commits to practice every day from 3:30-5:30. Donā€™t wait for inspiration, just commit to writing every day, and then edit, edit, edit until it feels like whatā€™s inside your head.ā€

 The new book is self published because Freshwater craved creative freedom. 

ā€œIā€™m not sure what traditional publishers have to offer anymore,ā€ he said, ā€œlike YouTube for musicians, if youā€™ve got what you think is a high quality manuscript, put it out there and it will generate a following.ā€ 

Freshwater will read from ā€œThe Dark Horseā€ at an event on Saturday, March 23, 5-7 p.m. at Top of the Pines (56 Baltimore Ave., Rehoboth Beach). His books are available at Amazon and anywhere books are sold. 

(Amazon screenshot)
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ā€˜Tigerā€™ burning bright: an interview with Mary Timony

Todayā€™s female-driven music scene wouldnā€™t be the same without her

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Mary Timony is back with a new album. (Photo by Chris Grady)

Itā€™s hard to imagine what the current female-driven music scene would be like without Mary Timony. From Sleater-Kinney to Haim, from Angel Olsen to Mitski, the influence of Mary Timony is in every note being played, every word being sung. On her new solo album, ā€œUntame The Tigerā€ (Merge), with its sly nod to Joni Mitchell, Timony has brought her many years of musical experience to the fore, resulting in what is easily her most accessible release. Beginning with the incredible six-plus minute opener ā€œNo Thirdsā€ and continuing through the first single, ā€œDominoes,ā€ and gorgeous numbers including ā€œThe Guest,ā€ ā€œThe Dream,ā€ and ā€œNot The Only One,ā€ Timony is assured to keep listeners purring along. Timony made time for an interview shortly before the album was released.

BLADE: Mary, Iā€™d like to begin by talking to you about your musical lives in D.C. and Boston. I went to college in Boston in the early 1980s and was constantly amazed by the bands of the era such as Mission of Burma, Human Sexual Response, and ā€˜Til Tuesday. I moved to D.C. in the mid-1980s to go to grad school, and at the time, the music scene there was dominated by go-go music, and a smaller indie music featuring BETTY and the late Tommy Keene, among others. What do you remember about the music in D.C. as someone who grew up there?

MARY TIMONY: Thatā€™s interesting. We kind of did a switcheroo. Iā€™m from D.C. and I moved to Boston. (In D.C.) I learned, as a teenager, about rock shows and rock music from being involved in the punk scene, the post-hardcore scene of kids here. Those are the shows I went to in high school. Basically, the Dischord (Records) bands and stuff. I saw every single Fugazi show from when they started in ā€™87. Before that, whatever was happening in 1985, hardcore shows by Swiz and Soulside and Kingface and I loved Ignition. Other than that, I would go see bluegrass out in Virginia and I loved go-go. I would go to see (go-go bands) Rare Essence and Trouble Funk. I was very into that stuff; that was really exciting. I think I liked go-go the most out of all of it, actually [laughs]. I would go to DC Space and 9:30 (Club), mostly for local (acts). I don’t think I ever saw BETTY, but I was a teenager then.

BLADE: Was the active music scene in Boston in the early 1990s part of the appeal for you when it came to relocating to Boston to attend Boston University?

TIMONY: The reason why I went there was because I wanted to go to a music program that was in a big university, in case I didn’t wanna study music the whole time, which is exactly what happened. I studied classical guitar for a year and then I didn’t really like the program much, so I transferred to study English. I found out about the (Boston) music scene from friends. We went to The Middle East (nightclub) and TTā€™s (T.T. The Bearā€™s nightclub). Then after college, I ended up living right down the street from The Middle East and I was there constantly.

BLADE: Good old Central Square! As a performer playing in bands including Autoclave, Helium, and Ex Hex, and as a solo artist with her own band, itā€™s not unreasonable to say that Mary, you are someone who plays well with others. 

TIMONY: [Big laugh.]

BLADE: What makes you such a good team player?

TIMONY: I didn’t know I was [laughs]. I’ve gone back and forth between doing solo stuff and being in bands. Mostly, I’ve done projects where I’ve written a bunch of songs and I’m trying toā€¦I haven’t done a ton of collaborative stuff really. Ex Hex was fun because it was more collaborative. Wild Flag, the same thing, totally 100% collaborative in every way. But Helium was really my thing, but I got some great people that totally influenced it. I’ve always been doing my own thing but tried to find really good people. Music really is about connection. Itā€™s never as good if it’s only one person’s vision. Usually, if it’s good it’s good because of the connection between the musicians. Music is a social art form, I think.

BLADE: ā€œUntame The Tigerā€ is the title of your new album. In 1999, Joni Mitchell titled her album ā€œTaming The Tiger.ā€ Are you, in any way, making a nod to Joni?

TIMONY: A little bit because I am a huge fan. I have been since I was 18. But, it sort of came to me because I have a song called that on the record and I’m sure that probably came from ripping off Joni Mitchell. Then I just thought thatā€™s a cool name for a record. Then I thought, ā€œOh, shit!ā€ [Laughs] Itā€™s already been taken! Then I thought about it and then I forgot about it. Then I thought about it again and finally, I was like, ā€œItā€™s OK. It’s a little bit different.ā€ And I love her!

BLADE: Iā€™m currently reading Ann Powersā€™ book ā€œTraveling: On the Path of Joni Mitchell,ā€ which comes out in June.

TIMONY: Oh, I’m definitely going to have to read.

BLADE: Yes, please add that to your reading list. ā€œUntame The Tigerā€ is your first new solo studio album in 15 years. Are there things you write and sing about on your solo records that might be out of place on an album you would record with another one of your musical outfits?

TIMONY: Yes. That’s why this ended up being a solo record. I guess it was because of the tuning of my guitar. They were more or less finished songs. I wanted the songs to sound kind of acoustic. I also wanted to play with a bunch of musicians who I really love. All those things just made it seem like a solo record. If I’m writing for a band, like Ex Hex, which is basically the other band that I do right now, they’re not finished. I bring them in (to the band members) with that band in mind.

BLADE: I love the lush instrumental section on ā€œThirdsā€ and the psychedelic sounds of ā€œLooking For The Sunā€ and ā€œThe Guest.ā€ Were there things you were listening to while writing the songs for ā€œUntame The Tigerā€ that were inspiring to you?

TIMONY: I was listening to a lot of music, a ton of stuff. I don’t ever try to purposely emulate anything very often, but I can’t help it. I’d rather be influenced by stuff without really thinking about it too consciously. I always have loved listening to The Left Bankeā€™s instrumentation and The Moody Bluesā€™ string parts. Most of the string parts come from trying to emulate The Moody Blues [laughs] or The Left Banke. I’m obsessed with The Left Banke.

BLADE: ā€œWalk Away RenĆ©e,ā€ right?

TIMONY: Yes. This guy, Michael Brown, was such a genius. He wrote so much stuff as a teenager. His dad was a string arranger. Anyway, I love those string parts. I was listening to this prog-rock band The Strawbs and this early (Ronnie) Dio band Elf. (The Flying) Burrito Brothers and The Byrds, too. I love Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. Richard Thompson and I was really obsessed with Gerry Raffertyā€™s early solo record called ā€œCan I Have My Money Back?ā€ I love that record. I was listening to it a ton when I was arranging the songs.

BLADE: Why was the song ā€œDominoesā€ selected as the first single from ā€œUntame The Tiger?ā€

TIMONY: I don’t know. I let other people tell me [laughs]. I really hate sequencing records and I hate choosing singles. Iā€™m just too close to it. I can’t tell what people are going to like or not. A lot of times, the ones that I like are not the ones that other people like. I asked (the people at) the label and they suggested that. I think it’s more poppy sounding. Dave Fridmann mixed that one and ā€œDonā€™t Disappearā€ and heā€™s a genius mixer. and these mixers are always very pleasing and accessible sounding. I think that has something to do with it, too.

BLADE: Earlier, we talked about your long history of playing music with others, which reminded me of your guest spot singing ā€œAll Dressed Up In Dreams,ā€ written by gay singer/songwriter Stephin Merritt for his band The 6thsā€™ ā€œWaspsā€™ Nestā€ album. 

TIMONY: Heā€™s such a genius!

BLADE: How did that come about?

TIMONY: When I moved to Boston, for a year I lived with Claudia (Gonson of Merrittā€™s band The Magnetic Fields), who is his drummer. I lived in a group house in Cambridge. I was friends with Claudia, and Stephin lived a few blocks away. She told me he was making this record with guest singers they wanted to go over and sing on it. I went over there one day and he taught me the song and I sang on it.  I think he’s one of the best songwriters of the last 50 years or whatever.

BLADE: I completely agree. As someone who has collaborated with Stephin, are you aware of an LGBTQ+ following for your own music?

TIMONY: I don’t know. I think maybe a little bit. Iā€™d love that. I love everybody who can connect with it, because all I’m trying to do is connect with people.

Mary Timony (Photo by Chris Grady)
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Sherry Vine is turning 60 ā€” and sheā€™s not quitting anytime soon

Legendary drag queen coming to D.C. for new show, ā€˜Smoke and Mirrorsā€™

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Sherry Vine performs in D.C. on March 9. (Photo courtesy of Sherry Vine)

There are many things Sherry Vine is proud of. Throughout her 33-year-long career, the drag queen has accomplished so much ā€” sheā€™s released music, launched her own variety show and toured across the United States and Europe. 

But what she loves the most about her career is making people laugh. 

This calling to be a comedy queen started before her formal drag career. In high school, she remembers taking part in the musicals, and Vine would find joy in making people laugh by wittily changing song lyrics. 

ā€œThen it just evolved into doing that as the act,ā€ Vine said in an interview with the Blade. 

From the beginning of her career, sheā€™s made singing live parodies a central part of her performance as a drag queen. And for her 60th birthday, she knew she wanted to put on an extravaganza. 

Vine is coming to the Woolly Mammoth on March 9 while on tour for her new show ā€œSmoke and Mirrors,ā€ performed and written by her. Itā€™ll include new parodies, from Bruce Springsteen to ABBA. The D.C.-based drag queen Tara Hoot will be a special guest at the show.Ā 

Thereā€™s a lot that led up to this milestone year for Vine. It all started with developing her character more than 30 years ago. 

Developing Sherry Vine

Vine describes her persona as a down-on-her-luck showgirl from Las Vegas with a heart of gold. 

She was always obsessed with stars like Joey Heatherton and Stella Stevens. Not to suggest those stars are down-on-their-luck showgirls, Vine said, but she wanted to evoke a sex kitten mentality. Her character eventually morphed into what it is today from these inspirations. 

But at first, Vine said she thought she had to look funny to be funny. 

ā€œI didn’t care about the makeup. I didn’t wear big breasts. I just thought I had to look like a clown,ā€ Vine said. 

When she moved to New York City in 1992, she was surrounded by queens who balanced being funny and gorgeous simultaneously. That was eye-opening for her, she said. 

Now, she relishes surprising people, she said. Sheā€™s been told she looks ā€œtoo prettyā€ to be taken for a comedy queen, but thatā€™s OK with her. 

ā€œI want to walk out on stage, and anyone who’s never seen me, maybe they’re like, ā€˜Oh, she looks good,ā€™ā€ Vine said. ā€œAnd then I started singing about poop and penis and they’re like, ā€˜Oh my gosh, she’s so stupid.ā€™ā€

When she was starting out as a drag queen, Vine reflected that she didnā€™t envision doing drag as a career. She remembers not wanting to commit to it. She wanted to be a movie star, she said. 

ā€œI kind of fought it. I loved it,ā€ Vine said. ā€œBut I was like, I’m not doing this as a career.ā€™ā€

But once she let go of fighting it, her career exploded. She got connected with RuPaul and was on two television specials in the 1990s. That support was crucial, Vine said, and helped her believe in herself more. 

ā€œI was like, ā€˜Oh, OK. If this person thinks that I have something, then maybe I do,ā€™ā€ Vine said. 

Drag has changed ā€” a lot 

(Photo courtesy of Sherry Vine)

The drag scene has changed drastically. Vine credits a lot of this transformation to ā€œRuPaulā€™s Drag Race.ā€ 

ā€œWhen we started doing drag 30 years ago, no one in their right mind would have been like, ā€˜I’m going to do drag so I can make a lot of money and be famous,ā€™ā€ Vine said. 

Before RuPaulā€™s iconic single “Supermodel (You Better Work),ā€ one of the only examples of drag the average consumer saw was ā€œMrs. Doubtfire,ā€ Vine said.  

ā€œYou had to have a passion for it,ā€ Vine said. ā€œYou had to have a calling.ā€

When Vine started, drag was a fringe art form that had an audience of mostly gay men. 

Nowadays, itā€™s mainstream. Drag is enjoyed by a much wider audience, and is more of a way to become famous. When Vine was coming up in the industry, there were few ways to get on TV and in films as a drag queen, short of playing a character that was murdered on ā€œLaw & Order,ā€ she said. 

But even though drag has evolved and grown in popularity, Vineā€™s advice to drag queens has stayed the same over the years. 

ā€œDon’t try to do something because you think someone else is doing it successfully,ā€ Vine said. ā€œFind what you do, and then exploit and explore that.ā€

Looking back, looking ahead 

Out of her multi-decade run as a drag queen, Vine said sheā€™s most proud of the longevity of her career. There are a few people who have been in it as long as she has ā€” Lady Bunny and Miss Coco Peru, for example. Few others have made it as long as Vine, she said.  

She stresses that she canā€™t take credit for creating things, but she takes pride in being one of the first drag queens to go viral on YouTube in the 2000s. Her ā€œBad Romanceā€ parody, released in 2009, racked up more than 6 million views over the years. 

In the next few years, sheā€™s looking into doing more television and film projects. Her latest show, ā€œThe Sherry Vine Variety Show,ā€ just wrapped filming its third season. Creating this show is fulfilling a childhood dream of hers, she said. Itā€™s an homage to ā€œThe Carol Burnett Show,ā€ which Vine grew up watching. 

Whether itā€™s performing on camera or onstage, Vine doesnā€™t see herself quitting anytime soon. 

ā€œI love performing and drag as much now as I did 33 years ago,ā€ Vine said. ā€œSo I don’t see ever stopping.ā€

To get details on how to buy tickets to ā€œSmoke and Mirrors,ā€ visit woollymammoth.net/productions/sherry-vine.

(Image courtesy of Sherry Vine)
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