a&e features
The soul of Rob Bell
Pastor, author finds life beyond strictures of conservative Christianity
Pastor/author Rob Bell says the Bible must be understood as a human book written in specific historical contexts. (Photo courtesy the Bohlsen Group)
Rob Bell
Everything is Spiritual Tour
The Fillmore Silver Spring
8656 Colesville Rd.
Silver Spring, Md.
Wednesday, July 22
8:30 p.m.
$25-35
Once one of the darlings of white evangelical America, Rob Bell drew strong condemnation when he veered off script with his 2011 book “Love Wins,” a New York Times bestseller in which he dared to suggest hell isn’t the literal fire-and-brimstone torture chamber fundamentalist Christians have long claimed.
He left Mars Hill Bible Church, the Grandville, Mich., church he started at age 28 in 1999, in 2012 and has pursued several ventures since from a book with his wife Kristen (“The Zimzum of Love”), a tour with Oprah Winfrey (the 2014 “Life You Want Tour”) and more. Named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine in 2011, Bell’s own “Everything is Spiritual Tour” comes to Silver Spring, Md., next week. Bell is an LGBT ally and spoke with us by phone this week from New Orleans to talk about trends in contemporary U.S. Christianity, how he feels the Scriptures have been abused on all kinds of topics and what message he feels God has for LGBT people. His comments have been slightly edited for length.
WASHINGTON BLADE: You write a lot in your book “Velvet Elvis” about the work of binding and loosing and wrestling with scriptural texts. What kind of binding and loosing work are you doing on your tour?
ROB BELL: I’m trying to give people a new story, a story that helps them see that science and spirituality are long-lost dance partners and because of what we know about the universe and the fact that it’s an expanding universe, along with what we know about how our hearts work, I feel there are endless connections between the two. So that’s what I’m doing — asking some questions about what is this thing that keeps unfolding and moving forward … and what does it look like to have an integrated view of your life in the world so that it’s not just random fragments, but you have a sense that the whole thing is going somewhere and you’re going somewhere with it.
BLADE: How’s it going?
BELL: Oh my word, it’s so much fun. I just love this. … It’s kind of somewhere between a one-man show and a tent talk and a recovery meeting and hopefully an inspiring sermon in there too. It’s like a mishmash of art forms and I just love doing it.
BLADE: As you’ve veered away from traditional evangelical Christianity, who is your audience now? Are you finding acceptance among mainline Protestants?
BELL: I always thought the word evangelical meant good news, so I always thought it meant a joyous announcement that we are all loved and are all brothers and sisters and all in this together and let’s all work to deal with the suffering and the real problems in the world. So the idea of a subculture that liked to claim that word sort of always seemed ridiculous to me. … I didn’t grow up with any denominational affiliation, so I was dealing with this stuff kind of all across the spectrum whether it be Eastern Orthodox to Catholic to Christian to whatever, I was really talking about what it means to be human.
BLADE: Yes, but when we talk about voting trends and demographics and so on, evangelicals are counted separately from mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics. Do you not think in terms of these spheres?
BELL: No. I just never knew what they were talking about really. I mean I was always pro science. When they’d talk about these different groups, I’d be like, “Well, I’m not in that group, they’re saying crazy things.” But I did notice definitely from early on that I endlessly found myself discovering people who were on the same journey from all across the spectrum and to be honest with you, early on I found that all those labels just meant nothing. I’d end up in some setting and I’d be like, “Wait, these people are having the same discussion over here.” Mennonites are having a non-violence discussion, Catholics are talking about the importance of creativity in art, the Eastern Orthodox are talking about the centrality of mystery in faith … There was a through-line through the whole discussion so that even when we were pastoring (Mars Hill), we never saw it as putting together a religion. … When I hear people talk about these people vote this way or those people vote that way, I’m sure there’s some truth in those things on a general level, but they were never very interesting to me.
BLADE: So are you averse to “we-they” thinking in general?
BELL: Yeah. It just never seemed like a very interesting discussion.
BLADE: You took a lot of heat for daring to suggest a different view of hell in “Love Wins.” How much of that did you anticipate?
BELL: I did a series of sermons on women’s equality probably in 2002, so I had experienced this kind of unique venom that religious people spew when they believe they’re defending God. I had done a series of sermons questioning the war in Iraq, my first book had apparently made some people upset so while “Love Wins” was louder, the knobs were turned up, it was really a natural ongoing progression of what I’d been experiencing for over decade. … It’s interesting to see how many people aren’t familiar with the fact that nothing I’m saying in that book is really new. These ideas have been present in the Christian tradition for a number of years.
BLADE: Did you fear getting pigeonholed as “Rob Bell, the guy who says there’s no hell”?
BELL: (laughs) It’s not something I even think about. You can’t take people where they don’t want to go. Some people when they talk about faith, what they’re really talking about is fear. They’re not interested in expanding or growing … so I don’t use much energy thinking about it.
BLADE: Your critics seem to have pegged you as somebody who wants to have his cake and eat it too. What’s the biggest misconception about you?
BELL: What does that even mean?
BLADE: Well, broadly speaking, the criticism seems to come down to an opinion that you want to enjoy the kind, loving God but just skip over the unpleasant parts like the hell, fire and brimstone. It’s a recurring theme among your critics.
BELL: It’s just funny to hear that. It’s a weird critique number one and number two, these people who claim to be sharing the good news, oh wait, it’s actually bad news. If you’re literally operating from a world view that says billions and billions and billions are going to be tormented forever in some sort of conscious hell because they didn’t believe in somebody they never heard about … that’s a horror story. That is such a psychologically devastating portrait of the universe we’re living in, who could ever bear that? So if they’re like, “He won’t include that,” that’s correct, I don’t find that even remotely compelling … Fear is wonderful for behavior modification to a certain degree, but I think probably in your life and mine, what actually transforms your life is when you are given a new vision of who you might be in the world. You can scare people a little to get them to behave right or be moral or vote a particular way or raise money for your thing, but in my experience as a pastor, people are transformed when they hear a fresh new word of imagination about who they are and who they can become. So when people say, “He doesn’t want to bring that stuff up,” well, I’m in line with millions of people of faith who are more interested in making the world a better place. I’m laughing because sometimes the critiques are like, “Are you kidding me?”
BLADE: So those Bible verses you never see on coffee mugs like “depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” that Christ supposedly says to the damned, what do you feel those verses mean?
BELL: Well I think first and foremost, everything Jesus was doing was in the context of first century Jewish culture … a people that had been oppressed by one global military super power, the Romans, that was just another oppressive super power in a long line of them from the Persians to the Greeks to the Babylonians and more. These were people who had been conquered again and again and again and they believed at some point that their God would vindicate them. Often people have so divorced the reading of the text from what was happening at the time which here, I think Jesus is giving these really pointed parables and I think giving them these images of do you want to participate in a new kind of world? Do you want to join me with God in helping the poor and bringing about a new heaven and earth right now? They were part of an entire religious establishment that was part of the problem, exploiting the poor, dehumanizing people and I think he’s using very strong, very pointed hyperbolic language to say to them, “Turn your thinking around. Turn your actions around or you’re going to miss this fresh new thing that God is doing.” … So when people extract lines out of this and say people everywhere are going to burn forever, they have so warped the message, taken it out of context and distorted the story. … You can take things out of context and make them say anything.
BLADE: You’re very open and affirming to gays. Did your views on LGBT issues evolve?
BELL: I always felt my gay friends should of course be part of the church and serve and lead there so any interactions I ever had were, “Yes, of course I embrace you and affirm you. I’m thrilled you are here.” But it seems like a lot of people, I didn’t understand how painful it is for people to be in an environment where they aren’t openly affirmed and embraced. I just assumed it was a matter of, “Just join us, let’s go and let’s do this.” It took me awhile to understand and now I have several friends who’ve said the same thing. So it became, “Oh wait, this is all our issue, we all need to speak up about this and become very strong in our affirming and embracing.” So it was a long, slow road of me coming to that understanding. … I’m thrilled with the progress that’s being made. I’m so happy about it.
BLADE: Do you feel God has a message for LGBT believers?
BELL: Yes. First off, so many who were raised in a religious environment where they were told there was something wrong with them, they had to do a lot of interior work to get over those messages and it took extraordinary courage. I’m constantly astounded by the incredible depth of character and maturity I see in the LGBT community because they have struggled. That fire produces such maturity and I’m just in awe of it. So I just say keep going and on behalf of everybody who ever told you a destructive message about who you are, I’m so sorry. You are loved and affirmed exactly as you are.
BLADE: Why do you feel God would make someone transgender?
BELL: I actually don’t find it helpful to think in terms of why would God make someone a particular way. I don’t have that view of God. I begin with the world the way it is. We all have different struggles and why is someone born feeling they’re not comfortable in their own skin, I’m not interested in blaming some divine being on a cloud somewhere with a long beard and that sort of thing. This is how this person has experienced life and what we need to do is support them in being true to who they feel they are. There’s no way to answer those questions other than to start with where we are today and what does it mean to move forward in health and wholeness and joy?
BLADE: There are lots of scriptures advising wariness to false teaching and not to let ourselves get “tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine.” Some say you’re a false teacher leading people astray. How does one discern anointed teaching vs. false teaching?
BELL: The ancient Hebrews had this word shalom, which sometimes gets translated as the word peace, but peace in a Western context usually means people are not fighting, the absence of war. But shalom is really about health and wholeness and there’s multiple dimensions of shalom — peace with each other, peace with the earth, taking good care of the earth, being comfortable in our own skin, being at peace with ourselves. So I would simply ask, “Does this, whatever this idea is, a new movement or new interpretation, does this help us move forward into a greater and greater depth of shalom or not?” To me, that’s a good place to start. If it does not, then we should be a bit suspicious.
BLADE: Is the needle shifting away from fundamentalism?
BELL: Absolutely and here’s why. You would not believe the number of big-shot Christian leaders who come meet with me and … say, “Thank you for your books, thanks for what you’re doing. I can’t say that in my setting because I would get fired.” They basically say they’re pro-same-sex marriage and they’re evolving and growing and realizing the importance of science in understanding the world, they’re reading the Bible in new ways, but they basically say, “I get a paycheck from propping up this whole old world view that’s not working anymore.” You would not believe it. So yes, I think extraordinary strides are being made.
BLADE: But then how does this “Duck Dynasty”-kind of mindset keep popping up in culture?
BELL: If you’re part of a subculture that’s dying, it’s terrifying. You used to have your hand on the wheel and you’re used to seeing yourselves as the dominant voice in culture and now that you’re not, your subculture is increasingly out of step and for some people, that’s not just a neutral thing, but a negative effect in the world. It’s terrifying and when someone who has a microphone or a TV show can say, “There’s no need to move forward, they’re the ones who are crazy, just dig in your heels with me on this, we’re the ones who are right,” and dig their stake into the ground, that’s incredibly comforting to them. It’s electric. No wonder people have incredible heat around this sort of thing. It’s a last desperate attempt to sort of put on blinders and pretend everything is always going to be how it is. The great French paleontologist de Chardin said the soul of the universe goes forward. Fundamentalism on an energetic level, is rooted in a desire to go back, to some sort of imagined pure state of perfection of how things used to be. The fact that the universe can only go forward is why fundamentalism always turns on itself and collapses in the end.
BLADE: You must have had situations where the evangelical gatekeepers started closing the gates to you. Did (religious publisher) Zondervan (Bells’ publisher for several early books) reject “Love Wins”?
BELL: I never thought of those types as people I had to have on my team. But oh yeah, probably even 14 or 15 years ago, I would hear of people telling people not to have anything to do with me. That started to become a regular occurrence, but I never saw that as the goal anyway. It wasn’t compelling to me to be in with any gatekeeper. I was just always on to the next thing. I joke that I felt like the drummer in “Spinal Tap.” I felt like I would spontaneously combust if I didn’t get the next book or the next tour done. People who aren’t on board, they’re not really on my radar.
BLADE: If you had stayed at Mars Hill, would you have felt like you were increasingly preaching to the choir?
BELL: What does that mean?
BLADE: Well, you know, did you feel a calling to take the message beyond just church folks?
BELL: Yes. It was time to take the next leap. … There were a lot of unknowns and a lot of risks but that’s how you stay fully alive. And yeah, it was a really extraordinary season where it was like the clouds moved and I knew it was time to go. So here we are, let’s do this. That was really amazing.
BLADE: If the needle is shifting, why does it seem like the mainline Protestant churches have done such a dismal job at harnessing any of that energy into their tradition? Why is all the growth and excitement in the evangelical churches?
BELL: If your world view is that billions of people are going to burn forever, that’s a pretty good motivator to get off your ass and do something so you see a lot of this endless entrepreneurial innovation and energy being funneled into these places with very rigid, regressive theology and world view. Then over here you have these progressive, open-minded churches that are great on peace and justice and reconciliation and they’re literally arguing about what the choir selections are or the color of the carpet. I’m like, “Wait, you guys have such great ideas, how have you made mountains out of these molehills?” That said, I do see extraordinary things happening like the Garden in Long Beach, Calif., or Oasis in central London where people are trying new things and it feels like the best fusion. It’s fresh and the best of all across the spectrum and it really feels to me like people in their garages coming up with the next lap top.
BLADE: What’s Oprah been like?
BELL: Oh my word, she is as amazing as you imagine she is. … She has profound wisdom and a mountain of spiritual riches to share. … She is growing and learning and stretching and asking, “What do I do with what I’ve been given?”
BLADE: You’re so knowledgeable about the scriptures and their historical context. What do you make of that passage in John where it references “many other signs and wonders” in the life of Christ that have not been included. I suppose most pastors would say we have all we need, but does that verse pique your curiosity?
BELL: Oh yeah, I’m totally with you on that. It’s like the writer is saying, “I just want you to know, I had tons of material to work with. I just want you to know that I edited this sucker down to these few chapters, but oh my, could I have included some other stuff.” Which I think is awesome. What a human book. … It’s so awesome and so weird and to me, makes it all the more interesting.
Rob Bell says the tide is turning toward more open-minded views in Christian America. (Photo courtesy the Bohlsen Group)
a&e features
Your guide to D.C.’s queer New Year’s Eve parties
Ring in 2026 with drag, leather, Champagne, and more
With Christmas in the rear view mirror, we can turn our attention to ringing in a much-anticipated New Year with a slew of local LGBTQ parties. Here’s what’s on tap.
Pitchers
This spacious Adams Morgan bar is hosting the “Pitchers’ Perfect New Year’s Eve.” There will be a midnight Champagne toast, the ball drop on the big screens, and no cover, all night long. The bar doesn’t close until 4 a.m., and the kitchen will be open late (though not until close). All five floors will be open for the party, and party favors are promised.
Trade
D.C.’s hottest bar/club combo is leaning into the Shark motif with its NYE party, “Feeding Frenzy.” The party is a “glitterati-infused Naughty-cal New Year’s Even in the Shark Tank, where the boats are churning and the sharks are circling.” Trade also boasts no cover charge, with doors opening at 5 p.m. and the aforementioned Shark Tank opening at 9 p.m.. Four DJs will be spread across the two spaces; midnight hostess is played by Vagenesis and the two sea sirens sensuously calling are Anathema and Justin Williams.
Number Nine
While Trade will have two DJs as part of one party, Number Nine will host two separate parties, one on each floor. The first floor is classic Number Nine, a more casual-style event with the countdown on TVs and a Champagne midnight toast. There will be no cover and doors open at 5 p.m. Upstairs will be hosted by Capital Sapphics for its second annual NYE gathering. Tickets (about $50) include a midnight Champagne toast, curated drink menu, sapphic DJ set by Rijak, and tarot readings by Yooji.
Crush
Crush will kick off NYE with a free drag bingo at 8 p.m. for the early birds. Post-bingo, there will be a cover for the rest of the evening, featuring two DJs. The cover ($20 limited pre-sale that includes line skip until 11 p.m.; $25 at the door after 9 p.m.) includes one free N/A or Crush, a Champagne toast, and party favors (“the legal kind”). More details on Eventbrite.
Bunker
This subterranean lair is hosting a NYE party entitled “Frosted & Fur: Aspen After Dark New Year’s Eve Celebration.” Arriety from Rupaul Season 15 is set to host, with International DJ Alex Lo. Doors open at 9 p.m. and close at 3 p.m.; there is a midnight Champagne toast. Cover is $25, plus an optional $99 all-you-can-drink package.
District Eagle
This leather-focused bar is hosting “Bulge” for its NYE party. Each District Eagle floor will have its own music and vibe. Doors run from 7 p.m.-3 a.m. and cover is $15. There will be a Champagne toast at midnight, as well as drink specials during the event.
Kiki, Shakiki
Kiki and its new sister bar program Shakiki (in the old Shakers space) will have the same type of party on New Year’s Eve. Both bars open their doors at 5 p.m. and stay open until closing time. Both will offer a Champagne toast at midnight. At Kiki, DJ Vodkatrina will play; at Shakiki, it’ll be DJ Alex Love. Kiki keeps the party going on New Year’s Day, opening at 2 p.m., to celebrate Kiki’s fourth anniversary. There will be a drag show at 6 p.m. and an early 2000s dance party 4-8 p.m.
Spark
This bar and its new menu of alcoholic and twin N/A drinks will host a NYE party with music by DJ Emerald Fox. Given this menu, there will be a complimentary toast at midnight, guests can choose either sparkling wine with or without alcohol. No cover, but Spark is also offering optional wristbands at the door for $35 open bar 11 p.m.-1 a.m. (mid-shelf liquor & all NA drinks).
a&e features
Local, last-minute holiday gift ideas
Celebrate the season while supporting area businesses
The DowntownDC Holiday Market is bustling. Union Station is decked out with its annual Christmas tree. Washingtonians have wrapped their houses and apartment balconies with festive lights and holiday decorations. The holiday season is here. And with stockings to fill and empty space under the tree, Washington’s local shops and artists have plenty to offer.
Show your LGBTQ and D.C. pride with the Washington Blade’s annual holiday gift guide.
To embrace the holiday buzz: The Blanco Nwèl cocktail from Alchy Cocktails. This Caribbean eggnog is one of Alchy Cocktail’s seasonal holiday cocktails. The flavor profile is similar to coquito, a traditional Puerto Rican Christmas drink with a coconut base. As a queer and Caribbean-owned business, Alchy Cocktails has been based out of Washington since 2021. Blanco Nwèl is available in both cocktail ($24) and mocktail ($12) online and at a variety of holiday markets, including the Tingey Plaza Holiday Market, the Flea Market at Eastern Market, Union Station’s Main Hall Holiday Market, and more. ($24)
A spicy bite: Gordy’s Cajun Okra from Salt and Sundry. These spicy, tangy pickles pull on Southern Cajun-style flavors, packing a punch with paprika, cayenne, and more. Gordy’s is an LGBTQ-owned and Washington-based brand, making this gift an opportunity to support a local LGBTQ business straight from the jar. This pantry staple is available on Salt & Sundry’s website and at its locations in Union Market, Logan Circle, and its Georgetown holiday pop-up store. ($14)
To celebrate Washington pride: The DC Landmark Tote Bag from The Neighborgoods. Native Washingtonians, visitors, friends and family alike will find something to love about this Washington-themed tote bag. Food trucks, the 9:30 Club, the Metro logo and pandas from the National Zoo are just some of the city’s landmarks depicted across the tote in a red, white, and blue color palette. The tote is a part of the DC Landmarks collection, which donates 10 percent of its sales to the American Civil Liberties Union. The Neighborgoods itself is a local, woman-owned business built out of a passion for screen-printing in 2013. The 100 percent cotton canvas tote is for sale online or at the DowntownDC Holiday Market. ($22)
To give friends and family their flowers: The Flowers Bandana from All Very Goods. This 100 percent cotton bandana was designed in Washington and hand printed in India. Its uniqueness comes in being covered with the faces of Black women, representing a “love letter to all women but especially Black women,” according to All Very Goods. The Black woman-owned and operated business, based out of Northwest Washington, has a mission to celebrate diversity and representation through its products. The bandana intends to give Black women their “flowers.” The Flowers bandana is available for purchase online. ($24)
To unlock culinary creativity: The Curious Chef Gift Collection from Each Peach Market. This customizable collection of kitchen oddities — ranging from tinned fish to chili oil — is a quirky gift for the most inventive chefs. The collection is available in a Standard Santa, Extra Goodies and Super Holiday Size for up to $165. The Washington-based market, founded in 2013, permits customers to make the collection special by specifying what unique ingredients are packaged, including products made by local or LGBTQ brands. Each Peach Market offers assembly and pick up in-person at its Mount Pleasant shop and also offers local delivery and nationwide shipping via its website. ($85)
To give a touch of sweetness: The DC Landmark Chocolate Covered Oreo Holiday Cookies from Capital Candy Jar. Wrapped in a festive red bow, this box of nine cookies embraces love for Washington and the holiday season in one. Among the dark and milk chocolate covered cookies are images of the U.S. Capitol, the White House, the Lincoln Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial and festive hollies. The treat, packaged in a Hill East facility just a few blocks from the Capitol, is available for purchase online and at the DowntownDC Holiday Market. ($23.95)
To celebrate queer gaming: Thirsty Sword Lesbians from Labyrinth Games & Puzzles. This roleplaying game embraces lesbian culture by unlocking a world of swords, romance, and battle. Ideal for group settings, the book presents a system of world building and character identities that are best brought to life by creative minds. Labyrinth, which has been a local Washington business for more than 15 years, celebrates non-digital fun through games and puzzles that connect the community. This gift is offered online and at Labyrinth’s Capitol Hill location. ($29.99)
To make a bold statement: The “Resist” T-shirt from Propper Topper. This locally screen-printed black tee features the Washington flag designed within a raised fist, symbolizing both Washington pride, and political resistance. The shirt is made exclusively by Propper Topper, a local Washington business that evolved from a hat shop to a gift store since opening in 1990. The tri-blend unisex shirt is available both for pickup at Propper Topper’s Cathedral Heights location and shipping via the online site. ($32)
To keep it c(g)lassy: The Glass Ball earrings from Blue Moon Aquarius. Gifting can rarely go wrong when it comes to a new pair of earrings. The unique statement earrings — made of polymer clay, glass, and 18k gold plating over surgical steel — are hand cut, sanded and assembled in Washington, meaning each set is unique. Blue Moon Aquarius, a local brand, is known for its small batch jewelry and home decor designed with clay materials. Available in oxblood, hunter green, lavender, and bluestone color palettes, these earrings are available for purchase on Blue Moon Aquarius’ website and at the DowntownDC Holiday Market. ($48)
To elevate a holiday tea or charcuterie party: The Honey Flight: Tea Lover’s Selection from BannerBee. This local honey company presents the ideal gift to make cozying up with a cup of tea slightly more special. The Honey Flight contains three types of raw wildflower honey infused with fair trade Ugandan vanilla bean, chai spices, and locally sourced lemon thyme herb. The gift is also an opportunity to uplift a family company based in the Mid-Atlantic that offers all-natural, sustainable products. The flight is available online, at the DowntownDC Holiday Market or at the Arlington Courthouse and Dupont Farmers’ Markets. ($36)
For Baltimore shoppers: If you’re in Charm City, don’t miss Balston Mercantile, opened by a gay couple in June. Their gorgeous shop in the Hampden neighborhood offers an array of unique, upscale finds, from barware and artwork to cookbooks and home decor and more. (849 W. 36th St.)
a&e features
Have yourself a merry John Waters Christmas
Annual holiday show returns to Alexandria and Baltimore
When it comes to iconic Christmas scenes in movies, none can top the tree-toppling tantrum thrown by cha-cha heels-deprived Dawn Davenport in John Waters’s fifth full-length feature “Female Trouble” from 1974. Therefore, it’s not surprising that Waters continues to make art out of Christmas, performing his spoken word Christmas tour in cities across the country. Waters has even more reason to celebrate with the release of his new red vinyl 7” single, a cover of Little Cindy’s “Happy Birthday Jesus (A Child’s Prayer)” on the A-side, and “A Pig Latin Visit From St. Nicholas” on the B-side. If you’re still looking for unique Christmas gifts, consider this record. As always, John was kind enough to make time for an interview in advance of his tour dates.
BLADE: John, in preparation for this interview with you, I went back and listened to Little Cindy’s original rendition of “Happy Birthday Jesus (A Child’s Prayer)” on your “A John Waters Christmas” CD.
JOHN WATERS: One thing I did, if you notice, I make the same stumble in my recording that she did in the original.
BLADE: It sounded to me like she got choked up.
WATERS: No, I think she just stumbles over a word, so I stumbled over the same word. It’s appropriation, insanely.
BLADE: Is this a song you first became aware of in your youth or when you were an adult?
WATERS: When I was doing the Christmas album, I had this friend named Larry Benicewicz. He was kind of my idea man with music. He knew every single old record. I would say to him, “Weird Christmas songs,” when we were doing a soundtrack, or a song about bears, or a song about this, and he would give me all these tapes. It was one of the ones he played for me. A lot of the songs I put in my movies and on my records, I did know as a kid. I did not know this one, but I immediately embraced it. I don’t think it’s campy. I think it really is spiritual in a weird way. My doing it makes it a novelty record. I am really for novelty records, and there aren’t any anymore. Why was there not a COVID novelty record? That’s insane. The dance “The Bug” that’s on the “Hairspray” soundtrack would be perfect for COVID.
BLADE: The thing that struck me was that for a Christmas song in the voice of a child, a kind of death pall hangs over it, with lines like, “If I was good you’d let me live with you” and “they nailed you to the cross, they wanted you to die.”
WATERS: All of it! When I see children at midnight mass kneeling in front of a nude man nailed to a cross, I feel like I’m at The Eagle! It is S&M, it’s creepy. I took the same cover (photo) from her record to parody and put my face on it. The same thing I did with The Singing Dogs last year when I covered (their version of) “Jingle Bells.” I’m really into novelty records. I love them and I’m trying to bring them back. I don’t expect anybody to ever play these records. Even The Singing Dogs one said on it, “Please do not play this record” [laughs]. And the flipside, the Pig Latin version, is almost impossible to listen to.
BLADE: I’m so glad you mentioned that. “A Pig Latin Visit From St. Nicholas” reminded me of the lost art of speaking in Pig Latin. I also recall watching the PBS series “Zoom” as an adolescent and learning to speak “ubbi dubbi,” a distant relative of Pig Latin. Do you think that the time is right for a Pig Latin or ubbi dubbi revival?
WATERS: Here’s the thing, I never could pick up any language, except Pig Latin. I’ve been in every foreign country. Foreign countries have given me money to learn to speak the language. I can never do it! But Pig Latin…my parents and other parents in the ‘50s spoke Pig Latin so kids couldn’t understand what they were saying. Then my mother taught it to me, and I used it. The hardest take to shoot in “Pink Flamingos” was not eating the dog shit. It was when the cast skipped, in one take, saying “E-way, are-yay e-they ilthiest-fay eople-pay in-hay e-they ole-hay ide-way orld-way.” We’re the filthiest people in the whole wide world in Pig Latin. We had to do so many takes so they could do it once without screwing it up. In “Polyester,” Edith (Massey) answers the phone, “ello-hay.” I did a photo piece where it was all subtitled in Pig Latin. Like “osebud-Ray” (from “Citizen Kane”) or in “Streetcar,” “ella-Stay!” [Laughs] All the iconic dialogue translated into Pig Latin. My assistant who helped me do it, had never heard of Pig Latin. She really got good at it because she lived in many foreign countries and can pick up languages. But it’s not that easy to do it correctly and read it. Your computer will translate into Pig Latin.
BLADE: AI understands Pig Latin?
WATERS: I guess that’s AI. It wasn’t 100% right, but it was close. I can speak it if I look at it, but just do a bit at a time. It was a challenge that no one would possibly care about or want to do.
BLADE: I think you pulled it off very well.
WATERS: If you want people to leave on Christmas morning, you put it on. That’s how you get your guests to leave. It’s time to go.
BLADE: Ood-gay i-bay! How did your relationship with record label Sub Pop, which released 2021, 2022, 2024, and new 2025 holiday singles, come about?
WATERS: I believe the first thing I did for them was “Prayer to Pasolini.” They came to me through Ian Brennan. He’s won a couple Grammys for World Music, but he is also is one of my agents who does the Christmas tour and a lot of my shows, anything with music. He helped me arrange each one of the songs. He had a relationship with Sub Pop. It was perfect. My friends in Baltimore, (the band) Beach House, have had huge success.
BLADE: That’s right, they’re on Sub Pop!
WATERS: Yes! I’m happy to be on it. I’ve even been to the warehouse and posed for pictures like Jackie Suzanne used to do.
BLADE: Is there any chance that “A John Waters Christmas” might be reissued on vinyl by Sub Pop?
WATERS: No. It’s such a nightmare to get the rights and to renew them. You have to find the publisher and the writer, and they usually hate each other. It doesn’t matter if it’s obscure or famous, it’s hard to get. You have to make the deal. The singer doesn’t get anything unless they play it on the radio. It would be so complicated legally, and there would be such a [laughs] tiny audience for it. I hope it will come out again. The same thing with the one for Valentine’s Day. I had two of them that did quite well when they came out; “A Date With John Waters and “A John Waters Christmas.” The “John Waters Christmas” album is still the soundtrack that plays whenever I’m doing my spoken word Christmas show as people are entering the theater.
BLADE: Aside from your annual Christmas show tour, what else do you do for the holidays now, and are there any traditions that you’ve carried over from your family?
WATERS: Certainly! I have two sisters, my brother’s widow, and me, so there are four and we take turns each year to have the Christmas dinner. Mine was last year. An entire sit-down dinner. Mom’s China, the silverware, the entire full dinner. It’s pretty traditional. I don’t have a Christmas tree, but I do decorate the electric chair from “Female Trouble.” That is a tradition in my family. We do have Christmas decorations, but they’re usually weird ones that fans sent me. I have one with Divine knocking over the Christmas tree, and the Christmas tree lights up, all sorts of amazing things. There is definitely a tradition here that might be a little altered, but it is definitely a tradition. I used to have a giant party every year, but COVID ended that. I still wouldn’t want 200 people in my house breathing right now.
BLADE: I was looking at your tour schedule and wondered if there are any new cities in which you’ve never performed the John Waters Christmas show that have been added to this year’s schedule?
WATERS: I don’t think there’s a city in America in which I haven’t done one show! The only places I haven’t been to are Hawaii and Alaska. I could do it there, but it’s too long on a tour. I can’t think of a city I haven’t played in in America over the last 50 years. The Christmas show is completely different every year. It doesn’t matter if you saw it last year.
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