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Alan Cumming on his new role on CBS’s ‘Instinct’
Star of stage and screen says playing gay especially important in current climate
Alan Cumming continues to fascinate audiences. He’s enjoying a bit of a second career wind with his new role on the CBS procedural drama “Instinct,” which debuted March 18.
Once dubbed a “bawdy countercultural sprite” by the New York Times and one of the most fun people in show business by Time magazine, the well-rounded actor is known for Broadway (“Cabaret,” “The Threepenny Opera”), TV (“The Good Wife”) and film appearances in everything from “Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion” to the Stanley Kubrick swan song “Eyes Wide Shut” and a whole lot more.
He’s also active in LGBT and HIV/AIDS causes. Cumming, 52, serves on the board of Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS and works with many charities, including amfAR, the Trevor Project and the Ali Forney Center.
Adapted from the book “Murder Games” by James Patterson, “Instinct” gives Cumming the chance to play an author and university professor who wrote a book that is inspiring a serial killer.
It’s off to a strong start. Its pilot episode drew more than 9 million viewers and gay TV critic John Griffiths called the show a “not-too-twee crime solver in the cozy tradition of entertaining whodunnits like ‘Barnaby Jones’ and ‘Cannon.’”
There was a caveat though: “Just hope the scripts don’t get bogged down in serial killer stuff,” Griffiths writes. “Cumming is too classy to be saddled with gruesome and silly plots.”
During January’s Television Critics Press Tour in Los Angeles, Cumming talked about why he was drawn to play this role.
On his character: “Well, really just that it’s such a sort of confounding character. There’s so many different layers to it. He’s sort of a fuddyduddy professor, a bit of a dandy. He is a kind of former spy. He drives a motorbike. He’s gay. … I guess the challenge was to make them all into one sort of whole person.”
On playing a gay character: “I think this is an incredible thing and also a terrible thing at the same time. It definitely was another layer to the character that makes it interesting to play. But socially and politically, especially in the time that we find ourselves in America, where gay people are being persecuted again and their rights are being removed. And the president is actively condoning, by his silence, violence and persecution against the LGBT community … I think it’s all the more important that we should have a character with a healthy, successful same-sex marriage on network screens.”
On the cultural climate: “I really do applaud everyone at CBS and (production company) Secret Hideout for having the courage to put this on right now in an environment or a climate that you might think possibly might not be the best time to do that. But I think it’s actually the perfect time. It needs to be done, and I’m really proud to be a part of that.”
On the tangential nature of his character’s sexuality: “In terms of my marriage on the show, I was very conscious. You know, I am married to a man, (in real life) so I brought that to the table. But also, I was very conscious of the fact that I think most times when we see gay characters on American television especially, their gayness is, like, the prime thing. And there’s also the gayness is somehow a problem. And what I think is really refreshing about this and what I was definitely advocating was that there’s a successful relationship and very supportive of each other, and it’s also the fourth or fifth most interesting thing about the character.”
On doing some of his own stunt work: “What’s funny when you do these things is when you have a stuntman. I always say stunt people look like inflated versions of you, because they’re big, muscley guys. It’s like someone’s inflated them, like the Michelin Man. So what’s so great in this is I have two stuntmen — a motorbike stunt double and a punching stunt double. And my punching one looks really like my body type. He’s not all built. He looks kind of like me, except he’s 30 years younger than I am. It’s a very, very affirming thing to go in and see that a person 30 years younger than you is trying to be you.”
On pulling it off: “And also, the other good thing is there’s a scene where I have to sort of bring down a serial killer. And they were all going, ‘Oh, Alan, so the stuntman is going to do this.’ And they said, ‘Well, would you like to try once just to see if you can do it? We can use as much as we can of your face.’ I said, ‘All right.’ So I did it, and you know, I’m quite fit. And I did it and brought the man down. And all the crew clapped. And I was, like,‘Are you clapping because I’m old, or am I’m butcher than you thought? What’s going on here?’ I really like doing those things because it’s a bit out of my normal thing. But also, the fact is, the older I get, the more I enjoy doing whoopass kinds of things.”
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Should gay snowbirds cancel Florida amid anti-LGBTQ attacks?
The ethics of soaking up the sun while DeSantis targets our own
The sunny state of Florida has long been a draw for many members of the LGBTQ community, particularly those from cold Northeast states who flock there in winter.
With temperatures cooling off, the annual migration is underway, despite Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and his agenda attacking queer rights. Florida’s hostile environment has a long history, including the failed attempt by Anita Bryant to keep gay teachers out of the Miami school district some 40 years ago.
That homophobic tradition continues. In addition to the current administration’s draconian “Don’t Say Gay” law, and DeSantis’s threats to Disney World in Orlando, the LGBTQ section was recently removed from the Visit Florida website.
Travel is perhaps the most important industry for much of Florida, especially the Southeast and many gay couples decide to retire to the land of eternal summer permanently. Then there are those who flock to “winter” in the state.
Tony Adams is a journalist, editor, playwright, and former contributor to the South Florida Gay News. In 2016, he published a book, “Ending Anita: How Two Key West Bartenders Won Gay Marriage for Florida.” He and his husband spend time there every winter. But he finally had enough.
“I didn’t like paying taxes to the DeSantis administration,” he said. “I sold my place in Fort Lauderdale.”
But he cautions against an all out boycott of the state.
“If we desert Florida now, we are depriving our LGBTQ+ businesses of the revenue they need to stay alive,” he said. “For that reason, I still visit Florida whenever I can, especially Key West and stay at the Island House. … Florida has a long tradition of homophobia in politics. In my book I assembled timelines of hatred going back to the 1977 campaign of Anita Bryant against gay teachers in public schools. Floridians get angry and then come to their senses, but maybe it’s just the flatness of the Florida terrain that allows that pendulum to swing more violently than in other states.”
The Blade reached out to several gay snowbirds from the Northeast for comment for this story; all declined to comment.
Ed Salvato, a leader in LGBTQ marketing and education for the tourism and hospitality industry, weighed in on the deletion of the LGBTQ tourism page.
“The removal felt like erasure, it also felt gratuitous,” Salvato said. “What harm was that information doing to anyone? I speak to many tourism and hospitality professionals as well as frequent travelers, almost all of whom were dismayed and angered by these actions.”
Anecdotally, Salvato said he has heard from friends who are fed up and want to move out. Those who visit frequently are rethinking their upcoming visit to the Sunshine State, he said.
“Recently, I spoke to a woman in Florida very active in hospitality and the diversity, equity, and inclusion space who said she just heard from a large conference of mostly African Americans from Historic Black Colleges and Universities who are canceling their big annual conference there,” Salvato said. “Since they feel that these anti-LGBTQ actions as well as others feel racist. Like the attack on ‘critical race theory’ teaching and attacks on DEI create an unsafe environment for their constituents. This is not good for the economy or reputation of Visit Florida.” He added, this will “take a long time to repair.”
On those like Adams who sold their property but still visit, Salvato notes, “In fact that actually feels like a better reaction than friends who are boycotting the state entirely. To me that makes no sense. The folks in the capital will still draw their salary whether or not you visit your favorite gay guesthouse in Florida. However, the gay owners of that guesthouse or the queer staff will suffer so your boycott hurts the very community who you wish to protect.”
The sheer number of queer people, especially young gay men often escaping hostile families when they graduate high school or before, who find work in the nightlife industry is staggering. Each June, throngs of these young men arrive hoping to find a welcoming community, a job, and a sunny beach.
“In the instance you cite,” meaning snowbirds who may wish to sell property and visit long-term, “this shifts the benefits around the state so that’s better than a boycott but I think the best thing we can do is to go and support those destinations and suppliers that are daring to continue to reach out to LGBTQ travelers despite the signals sent out by the conservative state government.”
Nadine Smith, executive director of Equality Florida, took a similar stance as Salvato. How much money does the state earn from the “gay dollar?” She said “billions.”
“The state not only disrespects a significant contributor to its tourism economy but also sends a dangerous and exclusionary message,” Smith said. “This wasn’t just a petty move — it’s part of a calculated campaign to push LGBTQ people out of public life in Florida. When questioned about why they did this, Visit Florida officials confirmed that this removal was done to align with DeSantis’s hostile policies and rhetoric toward the LGBTQ community.”
Like Salvato, Smith and Equality Florida recommend spending your dollars at LGBTQ-friendly businesses.
“Residents and visitors can also channel their economic influence toward companies that align with their values, sending a strong message that equality and inclusivity matter to them,” Smith said. “Equality Florida is a proud partner of Open To All, a growing coalition of businesses large and small that pledge to be welcoming and inclusive. Customers can search ‘open to all’ businesses on YELP, empowering us to vote with our dollars and support businesses that prioritize and actively advocate for LGBTQ rights.
“In Fort Lauderdale,” she added, “VisitLauderdale.com launched a new social media campaign, “No End to the Rainbows,” to reaffirm their commitment to promoting a welcoming and inclusive environment for all.”
a&e features
Queer writer reflects on assault, drug use, more in ‘Mean Boys’
An interview with Geoffrey Mak
Queer Chinese American writer Geoffrey Mak takes the personal essay to new, and sometimes unsettling, heights, in his book “Mean Boys: A Personal History” (Bloomsbury, 2024). Described as a “memoir-in-essays,” Mak, the gay son of an evangelical minister, takes readers on his volatile and visceral personal journey, which includes the techno clubs of Berlin, various illicit substances, his sexual assault, and ultimately an examination of mass-murderer Elliot Rodger. Mak generously made time for an interview in advance of his November appearance at the Miami Book Fair.
BLADE: In the author’s note for your book “Mean Boys: A Personal History,” you said, “I wrote most of these essays for the Internet,” and that awareness of your readership extended to “what they wanted to hear, and what they were wearing.” Is that still your target audience or were you looking to expand it with the book?
GEOFFREY MAK: If I could go back in time and inspire my 26-year-old self to keep writing, I would say, “Babe, in 10 years, you’ll get everything you’ve ever dreamed of, just online-only.” I still see the natural habitat of the personal essay; yet the internet has a tendency for fragmentation and bubbles. When I decided to write a book at a mainstream press, I thought a lot about how a book—unlike a painting—is a mass-produced object, which makes it a more democratic medium, almost humble. I thought a lot about the opportunity to reach readers in Idaho or Oregon or Arkansas, and, in fact, I now get emails or Instagram DMs from readers in all those states. I wanted to explore universal themes that anyone can relate to, such as the wages of status in a high school cafeteria, or the process of forgiving one’s own father.
BLADE: You also mentioned James Baldwin and Joan Didion, as well as Ed White, Hilton Als, and Alan Hollinghurst, among others. How important are these writers to you in your work?
MAK: I love that you called him Ed, because he is Ed. Each of those writers gave me something that is a part of me. Baldwin: conviction. Didion: cadence. White: self-mythology. Als: voice. Hollinghurst: sex.
BLADE: Another writer, Wesley Yang, is featured prominently in the “Identity Despite Itself” essay. Do you know if he’s aware of being the essay’s subject? If so, has he told you how he feels about it?
MAK: Marco Roth, a friend, was one of the founding editors of n+1, and commissioned and edited Wesley Yang’s remarkable essay, “The Face of Seung-Hui Cho” when it came out in 2008. After Marco read my book, he sent it to him. In Marco’s view, I had at last given Yang his due: taking him as seriously as he deserved, which is something any writer should be flattered by. And I did take him seriously, calling him into account for his internalized Asian racism and transphobia. As to what Yang actually thinks, I have no idea. Can you believe it: Not a single person I wrote about in the book has reached out to me about it?
BLADE: In “My Father, The Minister,” you address religion, not only as the son of a religious leader but also as a gay man. Religion continues to make headlines, whether it’s the role it’s playing in the 2024 election, the ongoing sexual abuse scandals in the various churches, or the war in Gaza. What role, if any, does religion play in your life at present?
MAK: I pay close attention to the religious life of this country. Two-thirds consider themselves religious. A lot of what I read disturbs me, nothing is surprising to me. I was heartened when, earlier this year, the United Methodist Church rescinded a ban on gay clergy. It was a rare victory because sexual difference remains the greatest divisive factor in American churches today. The articulation of the queer, Christian subject might be my highest priority as a writer today. (Out of all my essays, I consider “California Gothic” my greatest work.) I don’t participate in organized religion, but I still study the Bible and read queer theology, particularly the work of Marcella Althaus-Reid and Linn Tonstad, major influences of mine. I count theologians as some of my closest friends. I was actually just emailing with the writer Garth Greenwell about how 4th-century apophatic theology has parallels with queer theory today. I’m currently writing a novel about a trans-femme protagonist who finds her way to God. I’m quite serious. Sometimes, I dream that if this whole writer career doesn’t pan out, I might go to Divinity School.
BLADE: You also write honestly about your drug usage in “Mean Boys.” There’s a line in the “California Gothic” essay that reads: “After psychosis, and after addiction, I knew that whether I would recover came down to a single test: Could I find grace in the ordinary?” Where are you now on that journey?
MAK: I happen to be sober now, but I have cycled through periods of limited drug use and sobriety since I finished that essay. I belong to a harm reduction community that keeps me accountable to my self-stated goals. For several years, I have had a buddy system, which differs from a sponsor relationship because it’s non-hierarchical, with a friend I’m extremely close with—we regularly check in with cravings, take stock of our weekly stressors, talk about books. If we ever call the other, we know to drop whatever we’re doing and pick up, because it’s an emergency. One night, he called me when he relapsed on meth, and I ran straight to his apartment, we flushed out the syringes, and cried in each other’s arms until the sleeping pills kicked in. Since then, he’s been sober for almost two years. Recently, I’ve been talking to him about “junk time,” which are the late-night brain rot hours when I can’t read and crave drugs the most. I need to start finding grace in the ordinariness of junk time. Thanks for the reminder.
BLADE: What was involved in your decision to write about the aftermath of your sexual assault in the essay “In Arcadia Ego?”
MAK: OK, so the first section of that essay originated as a Facebook post. People reached out with caring words, although the writing partly explored my reaching a limit with caring words. The material was so raw that I put it down for at least a few years. After I had some distance from my own assault, I picked up the essay again and suddenly realized I was bored of my own pain. It wasn’t going to teach me anything, because suffering isn’t a university. I wanted to party, so I wrote about that. Nothing about this was virtuous or wholesome or dignified. I got fucked up and screamed with my gays on the dance floor like sorority girls at a bachelorette party. In a previous era, you had a party to commemorate an occasion. My friends and I partied for no reason; the party justified itself. Life is like this, too. You never need a reason.
BLADE: Was the lengthy, titular essay that closes out the book, the first essay written for the book, and therefore the inspiration?
MAK: It was the last essay I finished. In fact, we delayed the release date of the book because I couldn’t finish it. It’s my most original writing and original thinking. It’s also not for everyone.
BLADE: In the “Mean Boys” essay, you write about the ultimate mean boy – mass-murderer Elliot Rodger. Did that essay begin as being about Rodger or did that come later?
MAK: This was one of the first essays I wrote where I didn’t outline it or know where it was ending up in advance. I started with an image—the Lacoste polo with the popped collar—and just kept writing. It’s meandering, because that’s how I wrote it, working through the innate turbulence of each paragraph until a door appeared into the next paragraph. I eventually found my way to Rodger. There was a time I thought I could write the essay without reading the manifesto, until I realized, c’mon, I was being chicken, I had to read the manifesto. Once I finished it, I knew I had to rewrite the entire essay.
BLADE: Have you started writing or thinking about your next book project?
MAK: I’m working on a novel about degenerate ravers in Berlin. While the UK and Germany have novels about raving, America curiously doesn’t have one. So, I decided to write one.
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‘Fun’ farewell: an interview with Cyndi Lauper
Pop icon reflects on career as final tour kicks off
When I did the tally, I realized that, including this one, I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing Cyndi Lauper nine times since 1997. Of course, that doesn’t match the number of times I’ve been fortunate to see her perform live – that would be 12, beginning in 1984.
And now, as I prepare to see her for a 13th time, it’s with a touch of sadness as Lauper is embarking on her farewell tour. One of the best friends the LGBTQ community has ever had, Lauper’s multi-artist True Colors Tours, which ran from 2007-2010 and raised funds for the Matthew Shepard Foundation, PFLAG, and HRC, and the subsequent founding of True Colors United in 2008, which continues to help homeless LGBTQ youth, are just a couple of examples of her activism. Additionally, Lauper is a lifetime musical trendsetter. For instance, she recorded a duet with the late Tony Bennett, more than 10 years before Lady Gaga did, as well as released dance-oriented and country music albums, 14 and 8 years, respectively, before Beyoncé. When it comes to her legendary personal style, social media fashion critic Nicky Campbell recently declared Lauper an icon in his review of the 2024 VMA fashions. Now, as we prepare to say farewell to Lauper on the concert tour circuit, she was generous enough to make time for an interview before hitting the road.
Lauper plays D.C.’s Capital One Arena on Sunday, Oct. 27.
BLADE: In preparing for this interview, in which we’re talking about your farewell tour, I pulled out my 12 ticket stubs from your concerts I’ve attended since 1984, beginning with two that year in Boston. Do you remember what that first, headlining tour as a solo artist felt like for you?
CYNDI LAUPER: I just wanted to make sure I had places to go. I wanted the sound to be really great. I don’t know if I accomplished that, but I did have those big speakers that I used to run up on. That’s me! I loved that. Because I saw all those wonderful English groups, the ska bands.
BLADE: You mean Madness and The English Beat and The Specials?
LAUPER: The Specials! I thought they were extraordinary. The singer (Neville Staple), I don’t know where his family was from, I guess he could have been Jamaican English. He was so fierce, singing so great, and he climbed up on top of the speaker and put up his fist and he’s singing his guts out. I’m thinking, “It’s Mighty Mouse!” When I was a kid that was kind of my favorite show, I don’t know why [laughs]. But it always influenced me, and I remember in ’84, ‘85 I was still free. When ‘86 came then I became a prisoner of the system.
BLADE : Being on a major record label, and all that.
LAUPER: I wasn’t allowed to touch anybody. I wasn’t allowed to go out to them (in the audience) or have them come to me. It was totally different, and I totally hated it.
BLADE: Did you ever imagine that 40 years later you would be embarking on a farewell tour?
LAUPER: Well, at some point, sure. I think that for me this is the perfect time. Because it’s a kind of bucket list of what I always wanted to do. In the beginning, it was roughneck style. Whatever I could jimmy-rig, I did. When I got to a certain point like we were doing the (live) “Money Changes Everything” video. I had fantasies of a cherry-picker. Because of our budget, everyone said, “Well, you can’t get a cherry-picker but we’ll give you a garbage pail and a pulley system. I thought to myself, “Oh no, like Oscar the Grouch?” I had a friend who was a great interviewer, and she used to interview everybody from a garbage pail. So, of course, that’s what my people gave me to go up in the crowd. I thought it was a pulley system. The pulley system was actually 10 men with rope holding it. When I started to shake (while singing), I started to slip out of their hands. They brought me right in. That could have been the reason that the lawyer made me sign my will before I left.
BLADE: Are you planning to sing songs from each of your albums?
LAUPER: I’m really trying. I didn’t get anything from the blues album (2010’s “Memphis Blues”) in there because there’s too many songs. I usually get to the point where (I say), “Hey, guys, if the visuals look good for this, can we switch the songs?” What I did was I wanted to do visuals (on the tour). I wanted to do performance art. That means you have to be on a click. Like when I went out on the (Rod) Stewart tour and we used the lyric video of “Sally’s Pigeons.” You can’t do that and not be on a click, because the guy running visual has to be on the click. If nobody’s together, it’s like, “Hey, what the hell now the words are there…no they’re not.”
BLADE: It’s like a badly dubbed movie.
LAUPER: Yeah. But this time I got this wonderful visual director, Brian Burke, who worked for years with the creative director of Cirque Du Soleil, and not having people flying through the air. In the beginning of all that, that was my fantasy! I wanted to fly through the air, and all I got was a cherry-picker — not a cherry-picker, but a garbage pail. It wasn’t going to happen for me. Now, I’m 71! I’m not gonna go flying through the air. It’s a mixture of collabs with artists and art. Art and music. The whole thing is an artist collective, any time you go out on tour. It’s not just you. You’re with other dance artists if you’re a dancer, or you’re with musicians. Or you’re with lighting designers, that’s art, too. We did these collabs and I’m excited to present a show like this because it’s something I always wanted to do. Fingers crossed that it all works out. I’m even going to do costume changes this time, which you know I never do because it’s so bothersome. But I can do it in a way now that I’m comfortable with. I just want to be able to do this as a gift to all the people that followed me through all my crazy twists and turns. I did all those twists and turns because I kept hitting brick walls. You keep hitting the gatekeeper, you gotta find your way around that gatekeeper.
BLADE: Earlier this year, “Let The Canary Sing,” Alison Ellwood’s documentary about you received a theatrical release. After having your memoir published in 2012, did it feel to you like the documentary was the next logical step, a continuation of sorts?
LAUPER: Well, not for me. I didn’t want to have a documentary. It was the pandemic, and everyone was saying, “Everybody’s doing documentaries now, Cyn! Come on, what are you doing?” I was like, “I’m not dead!” Then I started watching documentaries on the streaming services and I saw “Laurel Canyon.” I felt it was an extraordinarily captivating documentary for me because it was the history of music. All of the people and players in that story were very much influential for me as a growing artist, especially in the ‘70s. I looked and saw who directed it…
BLADE: Alison Ellwood!
LAUPER: When they came at me again, I said, “I want a film, not a TV special. So, how about Alison Ellwood? She makes films.” She wanted to do it! I think she did a good job. It’s not your typical story. I don’t think anybody’s story is typical. Right? We think we know people but I guess we don’t. You think, “It’s typical! You start a band.” Which is always my theory! If something’s wrong, start a band, start playing out, you’ll feel a lot better!” [Laughs] It doesn’t always go that way.
BLADE: With the end of touring in sight, is there a possibility that you might do more film work for a potential Oscar to complete your EGOT status?
LAUPER: Listen, I happen to love independent films. For that I would write. I wrote “Unhook The Stars” for —
BLADE: — the Gena Rowlands movie.
LAUPER: Right! Usually, I like an independent movie because then you get to talk to the director and then you have to understand what their vision is. That’s interesting, because each director is a different personality and a different kind of artist. You have to listen and see what story they’re trying to tell and then have a couple of different suggestions. When we first wrote “Who Let In the Rain,” I wrote it with Allee Willis.
BLADE: Oh, the late Allee Willis.
LAUPER: Allee Willis was a great songwriter.
BLADE: Did you see that documentary?
LAUPER: No, I wish I did because I miss her so much. I guess I was talking to the director, and we didn’t have a band, so I just sang (sings) “They fall like rain,” and, in between, her dog, Orbit would bark. I was like, “OK, the dog is musical,” and everyone laughed. Then, I described it to the director as “Chinese Motown.” That would scare most people. To me, I hear influences of every culture in American music. That’s how I make my music: with different influences. Like cooking, like spices. I feel grateful that I was brought up in New York City because I was exposed to so many different cultures.
BLADE: On a final serious note, when I saw you perform in Boca Raton in 2016 in support of your “Detour” album, you asked for a moment of silence to honor Christina Grimmie who had been shot and killed in Orlando the night before. The next morning, after your concert, many of us woke up to the news of the shooting at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. With those tragedies in mind, and this upcoming election, which is so terribly important, especially for women and LGBTQ folks, is there anything you’d like to say to your fans?
LAUPER: Absolutely! There is an organization called Vote411.org. Taylor Swift recently, finally put that up. You go online and you find out all the questions and all the people that are running and what they voted for so that you can make an intelligent decision on who is going to represent you, not them. This war against women has been going on since the ‘60s, it’s just been going and going, and we need to stop it because we are half the population.
As far as the LGBTQ people, you have to vote. You have to be informed. Every time you have to vote, you vote! Don’t say, “Oh, it doesn’t matter for this one.” It matters! Because they put laws in there. There are community people that represent you and you need to start on a community level, a grassroots level to ensure that there are people that are going to speak for you as a human being. We are all human beings here.
As I said, women are half the population and LGBTQ, I venture to bet are a pretty large part, too. This country was founded on the separation of church and state. Separation! I don’t want anybody to have ownership over my body. They say they want local communities in charge but yet they have SCOTUS making federal laws about what you do in your bedroom and what you do with your body and who you are and nullifying families. Oh, I have a lot to say about that. You need to vote! You vote on every voting occasion. You can’t just lie down and get rolled over. This is our country, too.
And always share your stories. Because people who work with you, that you’re friends with, sometimes they don’t understand. They don’t know. What’s really interesting now, from when we started with True Colors United, I think that people do not understand gender identity, which is a whole different thing. If you want people to listen to you, you’ve got to listen to them. Just because they’re different from you, doesn’t mean that you have to be like them. You have to learn on both sides of the fence. Knock the fence down, because we’re all human beings; just everybody’s different, that’s all.
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