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Trump immigration policy prompts migrants to seek refuge in Mexico

Gay Honduran asylum seeker has ‘freedom’ in Mexico City

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Casa de Refugiados is a Mexico City-based organization that works with migrants from Central America, Haiti and other countries who are seeking refuge in Mexico. It holds workshops and other events at its community center in a Mexico City park. (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

MEXICO CITY — A 22-year-old gay man from Honduras’ Lempira Department was with a female friend in a park in San Pedro Sula, the country’s second largest city, one night in late February when a group of gang members forced them into a car.

The man, who the Washington Blade is not identifying by name or publishing his picture in order to protect his identity and the safety of his family in Honduras, said the gang members took them to a secluded location. He told the Blade they repeatedly raped his friend before killing her in front of him.

“I didn’t want to run away from her,” said the man on July 17 during an interview in a Mexico City park. “They killed her and they beat me.”

The man fled San Pedro Sula five days after the attack.

“I left because of discrimination,” said the man, who is now seeking asylum in Mexico. “I was discriminated against a lot.”

Honduras ‘was hell’

The man with whom the Blade spoke is among an increasingly number of LGBTI migrants who are seeking asylum in Mexico based on persecution they suffered in their home countries because of their sexual orientation and/or gender identity.

Anti-LGBTI violence is rampant in Honduras, which has one of the world’s highest per capita murder rates. Statistics indicate San Pedro Sula remains one of the most violent cities in the world that is not located in a war zone.

Activists in San Pedro Sula and other cities in Central America with whom the Blade has spoken in recent years have said violence and a lack of economic opportunities are the primary reasons that prompt LGBTI people to flee. Hiram Villarreal of Casa de Refugiados, a Mexico City-based group that provides assistance to migrants, regardless of their sexual orientation and/or gender identity, echoed them when he spoke with the Blade on July 17.

A newsstand in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, on July 10, 2018, sells a Honduran newspaper with a front page devoted to a shootout between police officers and gang members in a San Pedro Sula suburb that left a police officer and two suspected gang members dead. The newspaper also notes the 2018 World Cup semi-final game between France and Belgium (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

The man from Honduras with whom the Blade spoke receives support from Casa de Refugiados. He spoke with the Blade after attending a meeting at Casa de Refugiados’ community center in Mexico City.

He said his father beat him and kicked him out of his home “for being gay.” The man then sought refuge in San Pedro Sula where he worked as a merchant.

“It was hell for me,” he told the Blade, noting gangs extorted money from him. “I was a merchant. I liked to sell things. They took everything from me. I wasn’t able to sell anything.”

He entered Mexico near the city of Tapachula in Chiapas state after he took a bus from San Pedro Sula to Guatemala and crossing the Suchiate River. It took him nearly a month to reach Mexico City.

Villarreal said many LGBTI migrants, like the man from Honduras, enter Mexico by crossing the Suchiate River from Guatemala. He told the Blade they often stay in Tapachula or in Tenosique, a town in Tabasco state that is roughly 90 minutes from the Mexico-Guatemala border.

Casa de Refugiados has offices in Tapachula and Tenosique and works with the U.N. Refugee Agency. Villarreal said Tapachula and Tenosique are “not safe for the LGBTI community, above all for transgender women.”

Tapachula has the highest rate of reported hate crimes of any city in Mexico. Villarreal told the Blade that transgender women are also vulnerable to human trafficking and sexual exploitation in the city.

“There are many sex work networks, many sexual exploitation networks and obviously a person’s life is at risk if they refuse to go along with them,” said Villarreal. “It is an issue of survival more than an issue of whether you are a resident or not a resident.”

Villarreal also said an increasingly number of Venezuelans are now coming to Mexico to escape their homeland’s deepening economic crisis.

“People don’t migrate for one reason,” he told the Blade. “It is a mix of many (reasons.)”

‘The only thing that I can do is be patient’

A person who is seeking asylum in Mexico must formally request it within 30 days of their arrival in the country. The Mexican Commission for Refugee Aid (COMAR) will then interview the asylum seeker to determine whether their claims of persecution in their countries of origin are founded.

Mexican law says COMAR has 45 days to determine whether an asylum seeker has a valid claim. A person who is granted asylum in Mexico is able to receive documents that allow them to work legally, access the country’s public health care system and receive social security benefits.

An asylum seeker who speaks Spanish can request Mexican citizenship after three years. Non-Spanish speakers can seek citizenship after five years.

“It is a long process,” said the man from Honduras. “The only thing that I can do is be patient.”

Mexico City a ‘sanctuary city’ for immigrants

Casa de Refugiados is among the many groups that provides assistance to LGBTI migrants and others who are escaping persecution in their home countries.

Mexico City is a “sanctuary city” for migrants and also one of the most LGBTI-friendly cities in Latin America.

The Mexico City Council to Prevent and Eliminate Discrimination (COPRED) works to provide assistance to migrants and fines those who discriminate against them. COPRED President Jacqueline L’Hoist Tapia told the Blade on July 16 during an interview at her office that Mexico City’s status as a “sanctuary city” and it’s pro-LGBTI policies allow LGBTI migrants and asylum seekers to feel welcome.

She said a trans migrant has worked at COPRED’s offices for six months. L’Hoist also said COPRED has also begun to work with the Inter-American Development Bank on a project that seeks to find ways to provide additional support to LGBTI migrants.

“I love it,” the man from Honduras told the Blade when he talked about Mexico City.

The offices of Mexico City’s Council to Prevent and Eliminate Discrimination (COPRED) on July 16, 2018. LGBTI migrants are among the groups on whose behalf COPRED advocates. (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

Discrimination and violence based on sexual orientation and/or gender identity remains commonplace in many parts of Mexico. The man from Honduras nevertheless said he has “more freedom” in Mexico City than in his homeland.

“I can be who I am and nobody is going to abuse me,” he said.

‘Trump has created a policy of being unwelcome’ in US

He spoke with the Blade against the backdrop of outrage over President Trump’s “zero tolerance” immigration policy that includes the continued separation of migrant children from their parents. Outgoing Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto is among those who have repeatedly criticized the White House’s plan to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border.

A flyer on a wall in Mexicali, Mexico, on July 21, 2018, reads, “Death to Trump!” The city is directly across the Mexico-U.S. border from Calexico, Calif., in California’s Imperial Valley. (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

L’Hoist described Trump’s policy as “inhuman.”

“American residents and citizens know much more about migrants and they know that they are not delinquents, that they are neither rapists nor drug traffickers,” she said, referring to Trump’s previous comments against Mexicans. “They are men and women who are looking for an opportunity in a country that has historically been known around the world as a country of opportunities and of immigrants and one that was built by immigration.”

Villarreal agreed, citing the Trump administration’s efforts to ban citizens from five predominantly Muslim countries from entering the U.S.

He said one of the impacts of the White House’s immigration policy is that migrants have decided to remain in Mexico as opposed to try to enter the U.S. Activists in the city of Tijuana on the Mexico-U.S. border with whom the Blade spoke on July 20 echoed this account.

“Trump has created a policy of being unwelcome,” said Villarreal. “It motivates people to stay and not go north.”

The wall that marks the Mexico-U.S. border from the beach in Tijuana, Mexico, on July 20, 2018. (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

The man from Honduras with whom the Blade spoke does not have any relatives who live in the U.S. He nevertheless criticized Trump’s policies.

“It is very difficult with children who remain separated from their parents,” he said. “I feel very bad. It is very cruel.”

“We are all human beings and each of us did not leave our countries for one reason or another; because of poverty, because of gangs, because of all of it,” added the man.

The man said he plans to stay in Mexico City where he would like to finish high school.

“I don’t have it (my diploma) because I was afraid because of discrimination in schools on the part of teachers and my classmates,” he said. “I was unable to finish my secondary education.”

Mexico City, gay news, Washington Blade

Mexico City (Washington Blade photo by Michael K. Lavers)

Política migratoria de Trump provoca migrantes LGBTI de buscar refugio en México

CIUDAD DE MEXICO — Un hombre de 22 años del departamento de Lempira de Honduras estaba con una amiga en un parque en San Pedro Sula, la segunda ciudad más grande del país, una noche en el fin de febrero cuando un grupo de pandilleros los forzaron a entrar en un carro.

El hombre, que el Washington Blade no identifica por nombre o publica su foto para proteger su identidad y mantener la seguridad de su familia en Honduras, dijo los pandilleros los tomaron a un lugar aislada. El dijo al Blade que violaron repetidamente a su amiga antes de matarla enfrente de el.

“No me quiso correr de ella,” dijo el hombre el 17 de julio durante una entrevista en un parque en la Ciudad de México. “La mataron y a mi me golpearon.”

Se huyó de San Pedro Sula cinco días después del ataque.

“Salí de (San Pedro Sula) por discriminación,” dijo el hombre, que ahora está buscando asilo en México. “Me discriminaba mucho.”

El hombre con que habló el Blade es entre un creciente número de migrantes LGBTI que están buscando asilo en México por la persecución que sufrían en sus países natales por razones de su orientación sexual y/o identidad de género.

Violencia contra la comunidad LGBTI es común en Honduras, uno de los países más violentos del mundo. Estadísticas indican que San Pedro Sula sigue ser una de las ciudades más violentas del mundo que está fuera de una zona de guerra.

Activistas en San Pedro Sula y otras ciudades en Centroamérica con que el Blade ha hablado durante los años recientes han dicho que la violencia y una falta de oportunidades económicas son las razones principales que provocan a las personas LGBTI de huirse. Hiram Villarreal de Casa de Refugiados, un grupo en la Ciudad de México que proporciona asistencia a los migrantes, independientemente de su orientación sexual y/o identidad de género, estaba de acuerdo con ellos cuando habló con el Blade el 17 de julio.

El hombre hondureño que habló al Blade recibe apoyo de Casa de Refugiados. Habló con el Blade después de asistir una reunión a un centro comunitario de Casa de Refugiados en Ciudad de México.

Dijo que su padre lo golpeaban y lo sacó de su casa “por ser gay.” El hombre pues buscaba refugio en San Pedro Sula donde trabajaba como comerciante.

“Fue un infierno para mi,” dijo al Blade, notando que las pandillas le extorsionaron a el. “Yo era comerciante. Me gustaba vender. Me robaron todo. No podía vender nada.”

El entró México cerca de la ciudad de Tapachula en Chiapas después de tomar un autobús desde San Pedro Sula a Guatemala y cruzar el Río Suchiate. Se pasó casi un mes para llegar a Ciudad de México.

Villarreal dijo que muchos migrantes LGBTI, como el hombre hondureño, entran México por cruzar el Río Suchiate desde Guatemala. El dijo al Blade que frecuentemente se alojan en Tapachula o en Tenosique, una municipalidad en Tabasco que está casi 90 minutos de la frontera entre México y Guatemala.

Casa de Refugiados tiene oficinas en Tapachula y Tenosique y trabaja con la Agencia de la ONU para los Refugiados. Villarreal dijo que Tapachula y Tenosique no son seguros “para la comunidad LGBTI, sobre todo mujeres trans.”

Tapachula tiene la incidencia de crímenes de odio más alta de cualquier ciudad en México. Villarreal dijo al Blade que las mujeres trans también son vulnerables a la trata de personas y la explotación sexual en la ciudad.

“Hay muchas redes de trabajo sexual, muchas redes de explotación sexual y obviamente si una persona se niega colaborar su vida está en peligro,” dijo Villarreal. “Más que un tema de si es un residente o no es residente es un tema de sobrevivencia.”

Villarreal también dijo que un creciente número de venezolanos ahora están viniendo a México para escapar la profundización de la crisis económica en su patria.

“La gente no migra por una razón,” dijo al Blade. “Es una mezcla de muchas.”

Una persona que está buscando asilo en México debe solicitarlo formalmente dentro de los 30 días de su llegada en el país. La Comisión Mexicana de Ayuda a Refugiados (COMAR) se entrevistará a ellos para determinar si sus reclamos de persecución en sus países de origen son válidos.

COMAR bajo la ley mexicana tiene 45 días para determinar si un solicitante de asilo tiene un reclamo válido. Una persona si se le ortega asilo en México puede recibir documentos que les permiten a trabajar legalmente, acceder al sistema de salud pública del país y recibir beneficios de seguridad social.

Un solicitante de asilo que habla español puede solicitar ciudadanía mexicana después de tres años. Solicitantes de asilo no hispanohablantes pueden solicitar ciudadanía después

“Es un proceso largo,” dijo el hombre hondureño. “Solo hay que tener paciencia.”

Casa de Refugiados está entre la gran cantidad de grupos que proporciona asistencia a los migrantes LGBTI y otros que están escapando de la persecución en sus países natales.

Ciudad de México es una “ciudad santuaria” para migrantes y también es una de las ciudades más LGBTI-friendly en América Latina.

El Consejo para Prevenir y Eliminar la Discriminación de la Ciudad de México (COPRED) trabaja para proporcionar asistencia a migrantes y multa a ellos que discriminan contra ellos. Jacqueline L’Hoist Tapia, presidenta de COPRED, dijo al Blade el 16 de julio durante una entrevista en su oficina que el estatus de Ciudad de México como una “ciudad santuaria” y sus políticas pro-LGBTI permite a los migrantes LGBTI y solicitantes de asilo de sentirse bienvenidos.

Ella dijo que un migrante trans ha trabajado a la sede de COPRED por seis meses. L’Hoist también dijo que COPRED ha empezado de trabajar con el Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo en un proyecto que busca proporcionar apoyo adicional a los migrantes LGBTI.

“Me encanta,” el hombre hondureño dijo al Blade cuando habló sobre Ciudad de México.

La discriminación y la violencia basada en la orientación sexual y/o la identidad de género sigue ser común en muchas partes de México. El hombre hondureño aunque dijo que tiene “más libertad” en Ciudad de México que en su patria.

“I can be who I am and nobody is going to abuse me,” he said.

“Puedo ser lo que sea yo y nada me abusa,” dijo.

Habló con el Blade contra el contexto de la indignación sobre la política migratoria de “tolerancia cero” del presidente Trump que incluye la continua separación de niños migrantes de sus padres. El saliente presidente mexicano Enrique Peña Nieto está entre ellos que han criticado en repetidas ocasiones el plan de la Casa Blanca de construir un muro en la frontera de los EEUU y México.

L’Hoist describió la política de Trump como “inhumana.”

“Los habitantes y los ciudadanos norteamericanos conocen mucho mejor a las personas migrantes y ellos saben que no son delincuentes, ni violadores, ni son narcotraficantes,” ella dijo, refiriéndose a los previos dichos de Trump en contra de los mexicanos. “Son hombres y mujeres que buscan una oportunidad en un país que es históricamente se ha dado a conocer en el mundo por ser un país de oportunidades y de inmigrantes y construido por la inmigración.”

Villarreal estaba de acuerdo, citando a los esfuerzos de la administración de Trump de prohibir a los ciudadanos de cinco países predominantemente musulmanes de entrar los EEUU.

El dijo que uno de los impactos de la política migratoria de la Casa Blanca es que los migrantes han decidido de quedarse en México, en lugar de tratar de entrar los EEUU. Activistas en la ciudad de Tijuana en la frontera de los EEUU y México que hablaron al Blade el 20 de julio estaban de acuerdo.

“Trump ha criado una política de no ser bienvenidos,” dijo Villarreal. “Motiva a la gente de quedarse y no irse.”

La cerca fronteriza en la frontera de México y los EEUU en Mexicali, Mexico, el 21 de julio de 2018. (Foto de Washington Blade de Michael K. Lavers)

El hombre hondureño que habló al Blade no tiene familia que vive en los EEUU. Aunque criticó las políticas de Trump.

“Está muy difícil con los niños dejar como separarlos de los padres,” dijo. “Me siento muy feo. Está muy cruel.”

“Todos somos seres humanos y cada quien no estuvimos por el país por alguna razón: Por pobreza, por maras, por todo esto,” añadió el hombre.

El hombre dijo que planea quedarse en Ciudad de México donde quisiera terminar sus estudios secundarios.

“No la tuve por miedo . . . de la discriminación en escuelas por parte de maestros y mis compañeros,” dijo. “No pude terminar mi secundaria.”

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Kelley Robinson, a Black, queer woman, named president of Human Rights Campaign

Progressive activist a veteran of Planned Parenthood Action Fund

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Kelley Robinson (Screen capture via HRC YouTube)

Kelley Robinson, a Black, queer woman and veteran of Planned Parenthood Action Fund, is to become the next president of the Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s leading LGBTQ group announced on Tuesday.

Robinson is set to become the ninth president of the Human Rights Campaign after having served as executive director of Planned Parenthood Action Fund and more than 12 years of experience as a leader in the progressive movement. She’ll be the first Black, queer woman to serve in that role.

“I’m honored and ready to lead HRC — and our more than three million member-advocates — as we continue working to achieve equality and liberation for all Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer people,” Robinson said. “This is a pivotal moment in our movement for equality for LGBTQ+ people. We, particularly our trans and BIPOC communities, are quite literally in the fight for our lives and facing unprecedented threats that seek to destroy us.”

Kelley Robinson IS NAMED as The next human rights Campaign president

The next Human Rights Campaign president is named as Democrats are performing well in polls in the mid-term elections after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, leaving an opening for the LGBTQ group to play a key role amid fears LGBTQ rights are next on the chopping block.

“The overturning of Roe v. Wade reminds us we are just one Supreme Court decision away from losing fundamental freedoms including the freedom to marry, voting rights, and privacy,” Robinson said. “We are facing a generational opportunity to rise to these challenges and create real, sustainable change. I believe that working together this change is possible right now. This next chapter of the Human Rights Campaign is about getting to freedom and liberation without any exceptions — and today I am making a promise and commitment to carry this work forward.”

The Human Rights Campaign announces its next president after a nearly year-long search process after the board of directors terminated its former president Alphonso David when he was ensnared in the sexual misconduct scandal that led former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo to resign. David has denied wrongdoing and filed a lawsuit against the LGBTQ group alleging racial discrimination.

Kelley Robinson, Planned Parenthood, Cathy Chu, SMYAL, Supporting and Mentoring Youth Advocates and Leaders, Amy Nelson, Whitman-Walker Health, Sheroes of the Movement, Mayor's office of GLBT Affairs, gay news, Washington Blade
Kelley Robinson, seen here with Cathy Chu of SMYAL and Amy Nelson of Whitman-Walker Health, is the next Human Rights Campaign president. (Washington Blade photo by Michael Key)
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Former Ambassador Daniel Baer explains it all on Ukraine crisis

Expert downplays strategic thinking behind Putin’s move

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Daniel Baer, United States Department of State, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, gay news, Washington Blade
Daniel Baer served as U.S. ambassador to the Organization for Security & Cooperation in Europe. (Blade file photo by Michael Key)

Daniel Baer, who worked on LGBTQ human rights and transatlantic issues as one of several openly gay U.S. ambassadors during the Obama administration, answered questions from the Washington Blade on Ukraine as the international crisis continues to unfold.

Topics during the interview, which took place weeks ago on Jan. 27, included Putin’s motivation for Russian incursions, the risk of outright war, predictions for Russia after Putin and how the crisis would affect LGBTQ people in Ukraine.

Baer was deputy assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor and U.S. ambassador to the Organization of Security & Cooperation in Europe.

The full interview follows:

Washington Blade: What’s your level of engagement with this affair? Are you doing any consulting work? Is the administration reaching out to you at all?

Daniel Baer: I actually think the White House is doing a pretty good job of recognizing that they need to not only have press conferences, but also talk to other people who are trying to figure out how to be constructive critics, idea generators from the outside.

Blade: OK, so you’re being solicited and engaging on this issue. My next question for you is why do you think Putin is doing this at this time?

Baer: So, I guess taking a step back from the whole thing, one of the things about a problem like this is that everybody is searching for the right answer assuming that there is a like comfortable or compelling or intellectually accurate answer, and I actually think we’re just in a really hard moment.

I don’t know why he’s doing it now. And in fact, I think that one of the puzzles that we haven’t solved yet is that all the things that he says are the reasons that he’s doing it — that he feels encirclement by NATO, … or that the situation in Ukraine is untenable — none of those things have changed. Setting aside the fact that they’re spurious, it’s not like there’s been some new move in the last 12 months that has precipitated [a reaction] on any of those fronts that you can say, “Oh, well, he’s responding to the recent meeting where Ukraine was offered membership in NATO, or he’s responding to a change in government in Ukraine that it’s clearly anti-Russia, or any other move that we’ve done.” The explanation just doesn’t hold water, and so I think we need to look for alternative ones.

The best I can come up with is actually just a broad — it doesn’t actually explain this particular moment, but I think you could look at the timing of his life. He has, I don’t know, 10 years left. And during those 10 years, it’s unlikely that Russia is going to grow more powerful; it’s much more likely that it’s going to become at least relatively and probably nominally less powerful. And so, if you’re unhappy with the status quo, and you feel like you’re a declining power, and you don’t have endless time, there’s no time like the present. And you’ll make up whatever reasons you need to in order to justify it.

I also think there’s a tendency on our part to attribute far more “strategery” to Putin than there necessarily is. I mean, he’s a bully and a thug. I think the whole Putin’s playing chess and we’re playing checkers is actually completely inverted. We’re in our own heads that there’s some kind of nuanced position that would mollify him. He’s just a gangster and he’s taking a punch because he has one. And I don’t think it gets much more complicated than that. And so, I guess the answer to why he’s doing this now, because the international conditions are such that he feels like the United States is focused domestically, the Ukrainians are not moving forward with succeeding to build — they’re kind of in stasis on building a European state— and he has, you know, he has the space to take a punch, so he’s contemplating doing it, or he’s already decided to do it. And he’s just extracting as much as possible before he takes it.

Blade: That leads me to my next question: What is your judgement of the risk of out and out war?

Baer: I don’t know because I have two hypotheses that cut both ways. One is that I think Putin is vastly underestimating the degree of resistance. On the other hand, I think that nothing short of domination is satisfactory. And so, I don’t know. I guess I think there’s a 90 percent chance that he does something, and I think there’s a 75 percent chance that what he does is not an all out invasion or ground invasion, at least not at first, but rather something that is aimed at confusing us. So some sort of hybrid or staged or false flag kind of attack in tandem with a political coup in Kiev, where he works to install a more Russia-loyal leader.

The thing with the ground invasion is that Russian soldiers’ moms are one of the only, like, powerful political forces in civil society in Russia. I just don’t see any way that a ground invasion doesn’t involve massive Russian casualties, even if they will be dominant. The people who are going to impose the consequences on him will be the Ukrainians, not the rest of us, and he should not invade, and if he does, we should, frankly, work hard to make it as painful and difficult for him as possible.

Blade: What will that look like?

Baer: I think we should at that point continue — we shouldn’t pause, we should continue to send the defensive equipment and backfill as much as possible their ability from an equipment basis to resist.

Blade: So if we were to look at a model for past U.S. engagements. I’m thinking Greece under President Truman, which was so successful that nobody really knows about it, I don’t think. Is there any model we should be looking toward, or not looking toward?

Baer: No, I guess. I’m not sure there’s any good historical model because obviously, any of them you can pick apart. I do think that one thing that has gotten lost in a lot of the analysis — and this goes back to Putin being a gangster thug, and not being such a genius — is there’s a moral difference between us. The reason why Putin gets to control the dialogue is because he’s willing to do things that we aren’t willing to do — as gangsters are, as hostage-takers are — and so yes, they get to set the terms of what we discussed, because we’re not holding hostages. We’re trying to get hostages released. And the hostage-taker has an upper hand and asymmetry because they are willing to do something that is wrong.

We shouldn’t lose the kind of moral difference there. Nor should we lose sight of the fact that Ukraine is being menaced. And I’m not saying it’s our obligation [to intervene militarily], certainly not our obligation. They aren’t a treaty ally. We have neither a political obligation nor a moral one to necessarily risk our own lives, our own soldiers in defense of Ukraine. But if Ukraine wants to defend themselves, there’s a strong moral case to be made that anything, short of risking our own lives, is something that is morally good. We generally believe that self-defense from lethal threat is a reasonable moral cause and assisting others in defending themselves is too — I think there’s a lot of back and forth that get glossed over whether that’s a provocation or whatever, and I want to say to people stand back, look at this: we’ve got one party that is attacking another. And the question is, does the other have a right to defend itself? Yes. And if they have a right to defend themselves, and they also have a right to have whatever assistance people will offer them in defending themselves.

That doesn’t mean that they get to demand that we show up and fight in the trenches with them, of course, and I don’t think there’s any serious people who are recommending that but it’s a good thing to help them. It’s not like a technical thing. It’s a good thing to help

Blade: Getting into that moral background, one thing I want to ask you was about the significance of what would happen in this concept of democracy versus autocracy. First of all, how much is Ukraine a functional democracy, in the sense that if we’re defending Ukraine, we are defending a democracy, and what signal do you think it would send if that Ukrainian government fell to Russian autocracy?

Baer: I think the institutions of government that the Ukrainian people have are not worthy of the Ukrainian people’s own demonstrated commitment …

They are not worthy of the Ukrainian people’s own demonstrated commitment to the idea of democratic institutions. So the answer is today’s Ukrainian government is a mixed bag and it’s very hard to build, on the rot of a Russian fiefdom, a functioning democracy, so I think it’s a mixed bag. I don’t want to sound like I’m minimizing [the changes], or that they’ve completely bungled an easy project. It was always going to be a hard project, and it was never going to be linear.

But I think that what we’ve seen from the Ukrainian people — by which I mean not Ukrainian people, but people of Ukraine — is that there is a broad part of society that a) does not want to live under a Russian thumb and b) sees its future in kind of European style democracy. And so I think that if there was, there’s no question that the Russian attack would be in part about subjugating the people of Ukraine and forcing them to live under some sort of new Russian satellite. And I think that there’s little space for serious argument that that’s something that the people of the country wish to have.

Blade: But I’m just kind of getting at — you’re kind of minimizing that this is a strategic move by Putin, but if he were to successfully dominant Ukraine it becomes a Russian satellite isn’t that saying like, “Well, ha ha West, you thought the Cold War was over and there’s going to be just be a unipolar world in the future but no, we’re gonna we have this we’re back and we’re gonna create a multipolar world for the future.”

Baer: Yeah, I mean, my answer to the Russians who always raise the multipolar world to me is, “Fine, it’s going to be a multipolar world. What makes you think that Russia is one of the poles?” Poles by definition draw people to them, they are compelling and a pole attracts, magnetically or otherwise, and there is nothing attractive about the model that Russia is pursuing. And if the only way that you can be a pole is by subjugating, to force your neighbors, you are proving that you are not one.

I think the benefits for Russia are far smaller than Putin thinks and I think the consequences for the rest of the world of allowing a violation of international order to go forward are much larger than many people recognize.

Blade: But that was their approach when they were the Soviet Union. They were subjugating the Eastern Bloc through Russian force. They did have, in theory, the concept of their worldview of you know, of socialism, or whatever you want to put it charitably, was going to be the right way to go. Is there really that much of a difference?

Baer: Yeah, however disingenuous it was, they did have an ideology . So you’re right, that was a key distinction. The other thing is that the Soviet Union in relative size — its economy and population etc. — was much larger than Russia is today. And Russia is shrinking, and its economy is less diverse than the Communist one was. I think it’s a delusion to think that they’re going to kind of rebuild an empire, even if yes, because of their willingness to do awful things, they could potentially for a time politically control through violence, their neighbors. I just don’t — in a multipolar world, I don’t see Russia being one of the poles, at least not on its current path.

Blade: How would you evaluate the U.S. diplomatic approach to this issue?

Baer: There’s been very clear over-the-top effort to include the Europeans at every step — meetings with them before each meeting and after each meeting, to force conversations into fora that are more inclusive and stuff like that. And I think that Secretary Blinken is rightly recognizing the need to kind of play a role of kind of keeping everybody on the side while we test whether diplomacy whether there’s anything to do, whether there’s any promise with diplomacy.

I think there’s kind of, sometimes kind of, two camps in U.S. foreign policy circles. One is like: We should give the Russians what they want because it just doesn’t matter that much. War is much worse than anything that we would give them. And another is that we can’t give them an inch and we have to punch them in the face whenever we can. And I think both of those are kind of knee-jerk positions that have become a bit religious for people and neither of them is paying attention to the practical challenge that’s in front of the administration, which is like this guy’s threatening to invade and we need to identify whether there’s any opportunity for a functional off ramp, and that doesn’t mean we do that in a vacuum and ignore the long-term consequences, but our problem is not a religious one, it’s a practical one. And I think they’re doing a pretty good job of threading the needle on that and being not too far forward and not too far back.

Blade: Do you see any significant daylight between the United States and Europe?

Baer: No, I mean, no more than the minimum that is possible. There’s a lot of talk about Germany these days. Look, I think some of the things they say are not particularly helpful, but I don’t actually think that in the long run, if Putin invaded, I don’t think that they would hold up sanctions or anything like that. So I think they’re on our side, even if they’re talking out of both sides, in some cases.

Blade: I am wise to the fact that this is a nuclear power. It might be a little old school, but could escalation get that far?

Baer: There can’t be war. There can’t be war between NATO and Russia. It should be avoided. Obviously, there can be, but it should be avoided.

Blade: How committed do you think President Biden is to protecting Ukraine?

Baer: Reasonably so. I think he’s enough of an old school trans-Atlantist that he understands that this isn’t just about Ukraine.

Blade: I was wondering because he had those comments from his press conference about “minor incursion” and I’m just wondering if you’re reading anything into that or not.

Baer: No, I think that was that was a — I think broadly speaking, everything he says is in line with the kind of view that you would expect. And of course, one sentence can catch [attention]. That wasn’t what he meant. What he meant was that he didn’t want to draw a “red line” that would prejudge policy in response to something short of the most extreme scenario.

I think it is a good caution to not obsess over a single sentence and to look at the broad considered policy statements.

Blade: What do you think if you were looking for developments, like what would you be looking out for is significant in terms of where we are going to be going in the near future? This is one thing to keep an eye out for but is there anything else that you are kind of looking out for in terms of the near future?

Baer: I guess I would look out for whether or not the United States joins meetings of the so-called Normandy Format, which is the France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia grouping, which has so far been unsuccessful, but I think can only be successful as the United States joins it, but the Russians, I think have misgivings with the idea of our joining it.

Blade: I’m not at all familiar with that. What makes this forum particularly so —

Baer: So it was started in the summer in like June of 2015, on the margins of some meeting between Merkel and Hollande. The French and the Germans are very committed to the idea that they might be able to mediate peace between Ukraine and Russia. It was supposed to implement the Minsk Agreement, and it just hasn’t been productive so far. I don’t think that the Russians will do anything — I don’t think the Ukrainians feel comfortable negotiating anything without the Americans at the table. And I don’t think the Russians feel like anything is guaranteed without the Americans at the table. So I just, I’m fine with France and Germany taking the lead, but I think the U.S. has to be there.

And there was a meeting of this group in Paris yesterday, and which the U.S. was supportive of, and so I’m watching to see whether or not the United States gets added in some ad hoc way, whether there are future meetings. I guess the reason I would watch it, if the U.S. were to join future meetings that would signal to me that it’s actually there’s some diplomacy happening there.

That’s meant to be focusing mainly on the existing Russian invasion, the occupation of the Donbas, so that’s not about the threat of the new invasion, but it would be interesting to me if there was forward movement on other parts of Ukraine. The announcement of the American ambassador is one. I think that last week movement of troops into Belarus was a game changer for the U.S., because there are all kinds of new implications if you’re using a third country as your launchpad for war, and so it complicates things and it also looks more serious if you’re starting to deploy to third countries and stuff like that. So I think that was that last week, you noticed a difference in the U.S. tone and tenor in response to that.

So things like that. But in general, like what I would do and I don’t think people always catch this is because there’s a boiling frog aspect to it. There are statements coming out from the White House or State Department. Almost every day on stuff related to this and like last week, there was a noticeable change in the tenor as the U.S. became less, I think more pessimistic about the prospects of diplomacy and those I don’t have anything better to look for in those statements as tea leaves, in terms of what the U.S. assessment is of the prospects of the escalation are, so it’s bad.

Blade: Right. That’s very sobering.

There’s a lot of talk, and I’ve just been seeing some like about in terms of, there’s like comparisons to Afghanistan and making sure that all Americans are able to get out of Ukraine. Is that comparing apples to oranges?

Baer: Yes.

Blade: And could you unpack that a little bit? I mean, I can kind of guess the reasons why. How is that apples to oranges?

Blade: Well, the level of development in Ukraine in terms of infrastructure and transport and stuff like that is not comparable to Afghanistan. I think it would be– if there were a Russian invasion–you would definitely want to, obviously, for safety reasons, it’s not safe to be in a war zone, so you would want people to be able to evacuate and you’d have to plan for that.

A major concern [in Afghanistan] was also that there were tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of locals who had worked for the Americans. The Americans that are in Ukraine are not a departing occupying power. There’s just not the same footprint there — the Americans are in Ukraine or there as business people or young [people working on] democracy assistance or whatever. And it’s just it’s a different context.

Blade: Why do you think the Russians put up with Putin? I mean, this is a country that was a world power and I would think has some economic potential just given its sheer size, first of all, and they do have oil to offer people. So why aren’t the Russians like angry at him for obstructing their participation in the global order as opposed to just putting up with him for years and years and years.

Baer: Successful instrumentalisation of cynicism. The lack of a belief in an alternative will keep you from fighting for it.

Blade: That’s pretty succinct.

Baer: I mean, I don’t think there’s any question that the people of Russia could be better off or different in terms of kitchen table issues, and ease of navigating the world, prospects for their future for their children’s future. The amount of money that Putin has invested into military modernization that Russia can ill afford, while he’s cut pensions and social services and health care. It’s just it’s objectively true that the average Russian person would be better served by a different leader. But he’s done a very good job of effectively selling off the country for profit and persuading people through repression and propaganda that there is no alternative.

Blade: And Putin won’t be around forever. Once he finally goes, is an alternative going to emerge, or will it be the next guy in Putin’s mold?

Baer: I think it’s far from clear that what comes after Putin isn’t worse and bloody. Regimes like this don’t reliably have stable transitions.

Blade: Wow, okay.

Baer: Yeah, we shouldn’t… we should be careful about wishing… wishing for his demise.

Blade: That’s good to know. It’s kind of a frightful note for me to end my questions. But actually before I sign off, there’s one more thing too because I do kind of want to talk about the intersection about your old job in democracy and human rights and then a Venn diagram of that with your experience in Eastern Europe in particular. Do you have a sense of what’s at stake for LGBTQ people in Ukraine or if they’re in more danger right now than they would be otherwise?

Baer: That’s a good question. I mean, my knee jerk reaction is yes. That — as mixed of a picture as Ukraine has been in the last seven years, or eight years — there have been meaningful steps forward, and certainly, in terms of visibility.

I guess, in the sense that Ukraine is better than Russia today, if you’re gay, if Russia is going to occupy or control Ukraine we can expect that it will get worse because it will become more like Russia.

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Trump ribbed Pence for thinking ‘it’s a crime to be gay,’ new book says

Former president openly wanted gay Fox News analyst for Supreme Court

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Donald Trump (left) ribbed former Vice President Mike Pence (center) in a meeting with Andrew Napolitano for thinking "it's a crime to be gay." (Blade photos of Donald Trump and Mike Pence by Michael Key; screen capture of Andrew Napolitano via Fox News YouTube)

Donald Trump, in the days before he took office after the 2016 election, openly contemplated naming an openly gay Fox News contributor to the U.S. Supreme Court amid concerns from social conservatives about his potential choices and ribbed former Vice President Mike Pence for thinking “it’s a crime to be gay,” according to the new book “Insurgency” detailing the former president’s path to the White House.

The key moment between Trump, Judge Andrew Napolitano and Pence took place during the transition period after the 2016 election when Trump invited the other two for a meeting at Trump Tower.  That’s when Trump reportedly took the jab at Pence.

“During their meeting, for part of which Mike Pence was present, Trump ribbed Pence for his anti-gay rights views,” the book says. “Addressing Napolitano, Trump gestured toward the archconservative vice-president-elect and said, ‘You’d better be careful because this guy thinks it’s a crime to be gay. Right, Mike?’ When Pence didn’t answer, Trump repeated himself, ‘Right, Mike?’ Pence remained silent.”

The potential choice of Andrew Napolitano, who was fired last year from Fox News amid recently dropped allegations of sexual harassment from male co-workers, as well as other TV personalities Trump floated for the Supreme Court, as detailed in the book, were among the many reasons conservatives feared he wouldn’t be reliable upon taking the presidency. Ironically, Trump would have been responsible for making a historic choice for diversity if he chose a gay man like Napolitano for the Supreme Court, beating President Biden to the punch as the nation awaits his selection of the first-ever Black woman for the bench.

The new book — fully titled “Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party and Got Everything They Ever Wanted” and written by New York Times political reporter Jeremy Peters, who is also gay — identifies Trump’s potential picks for the judiciary as a source of significant concern for conservatives as the “Never Trump” movement was beginning to form and expectations were the next president would be able to name as many as four choices for the Supreme Court. Among the wide ranges of possible choices he floated during the campaign were often “not lawyers or judges he admired for their legal philosophies or interpretations of the Constitution,” but personalities he saw on TV.

Among this group of TV personalities, the books says, were people like Fox News host Jeanine Pirro, whom Trump “regularly watched and occasionally planned his flight schedule around, directing his personal pilot to adjust the route accordingly so the satellite signal wouldn’t fade.” Trump told friends Pirro “would make a fine justice,” the books says.

Trump potentially making good of his talk about naming Napolitano as one of his choices for the Supreme Court “would have been doubly unacceptable to many on the religious right,” the book says. Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge, was friendly with Maryanne Trump Barry, Trump’s sister and a federal judge with a reputation for liberal views, such as a ruling in favor of partial-birth abortion, and is also gay, both of which are identified in the book as potential concerns by the religious right.

Napolitano and Trump were close, the book claims. Napolitano, as the book describes, had a habit of telling a story to friends about Trump confiding to him the future president’s knowledge of the law was based on Napolitano’s TV appearances. Trump told Napolitano: “Everything I know about the Constitution I learned from you on Fox & Friends,” the book says.

The book says the meeting with Trump, Pence and Napolitano when the former president took a jab at Pence in and of itself suggested Trump “was indeed serious about giving the judge some kind of position in the government.” Napolitano, known for making outlandish claims as a Fox News contributor —such as the British government wiretapped Trump Tower — never took a post in the Trump administration.

The new book isn’t the only record of Trump ribbing Pence for his anti-LGBTQ reputation. A New Yorker profile in 2017 depicted a similar infamous meeting with Trump and Pence in which the former president joked about his No. 2’s conservative views. Per the New Yorker article: “When the conversation turned to gay rights, Trump motioned toward Pence and joked, ‘Don’t ask that guy— he wants to hang them all!'”The incident described in “Insurgency” was similar to the meeting detailed in the New Yorker profile.

Trump ended up making a list of names he pledged he’d limit himself to in the event he was in the position to make a selection to the Supreme Court and made good on that promise based on his selection. By the end of his presidency, Trump made three picks to the bench who were each confirmed by the U.S. Senate: Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett. 

But Trump limiting his options to the list of potential plans was not a fool proof plan for conservatives. To the surprise of many, Gorsuch ended up in 2020 writing the majority opinion in the case of Bostock v. Clayton County, a major LGBTQ rights decision by the U.S. Supreme Court, which determined anti-LGBTQ discrimination is a form of sex discrimination and illegal under federal civil rights law.

The Washington Blade has placed a request in with Trump’s office seeking comment on the meeting with Pence and Napolitano as described in “Insurgency.” Napolitano couldn’t be reached for comment.

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